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end of game

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end of game

Postby highways » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:18 pm

I want to withdraw the system solutions to the 'end of game' results.... i.e. restart/restore..etc....completely mystified??
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Re: end of game

Postby Xenos » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:43 am

Changing the text at the end is the trick. Maybe Campbell will come in and assist by telling us the color code he used (it's not a standard red or darkred value). In theory you should be able to use the text overrides to change that message to whatever you want (or just make it blank) but you need to match the string exactly, so without knowing the <font color...> calls that are in that string, you can only get partial matches. (i.e. you CAN replace the words "Would you like to" and all the various elements).

To actually override the commands, you can create a new task with like [restart/restore/quit/undo] in the general task command box and then either leave it blank or put something like, "I Don't Understand" or whatever. Make sure the autofill is set to 0 and make sure it has a high priority (it should by default). Also make sure it's repeatable.

I'm not sure getting rid of the "restore" function is a particularly good idea (you can still do it from the menu, I guess).

That should do it. And maybe Campbell can give you the exact string to match in order to override the output.
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Re: end of game

Postby Lazzah » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:43 pm

highways wrote:I want to withdraw the system solutions to the 'end of game' results.... i.e. restart/restore..etc....completely mystified??

Why?
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Re: end of game

Postby highways » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:34 pm

Lazzah wrote:
highways wrote:I want to withdraw the system solutions to the 'end of game' results.... i.e. restart/restore..etc....completely mystified??

Why?


because the player can do something which kills them. They then press 'undo' and they are back in business. noway... they will go back to the start like every adventurer who has come back to life, have a glass of red wine, and get on with it.
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Re: end of game

Postby Lazzah » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:29 pm

highways wrote:
Lazzah wrote:
highways wrote:I want to withdraw the system solutions to the 'end of game' results.... i.e. restart/restore..etc....completely mystified??

Why?


because the player can do something which kills them. They then press 'undo' and they are back in business. noway... they will go back to the start like every adventurer who has come back to life, have a glass of red wine, and get on with it.

If I may say so, if you do that you are going to make yourself VERY unpopular and players will not play - or (more importantly) playtest - your game. :O

I may be old-fashioned in my views about many aspects of modern text adventures, but penalising the player like that just for getting killed - when YOU have programmed your game to get them killed - is very cruel. If they have saved their game, all they have to do when you have dumped the player back at the start of your game is to reload their saved game and carry on anyway. Are you going to stop the player saving and loading their game position as well?

Forgive me for being blunt but forget it Highways, it is NOT a good idea.
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Re: end of game

Postby David Whyld » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:52 pm

I agree with Lazzah here. If I got killed in your game and then had to go right back to the start every time instead of typing UNDO, I'd quit right there and then. Actually, if I knew that sort of thing was in the game, I doubt I'd play it in the first place.
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Re: end of game

Postby rotter » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:45 pm

I agree with Lazzah and David, this is not the sort of thing I want to find in a game I play. Are you going to try and disable SAVE/RESTORE as well? I tend to save a lot when I'm playing, without UNDO I would go back to the last save - so undoing your evil plan.

Remember people like David and myself are actually players and we know what we like (should be an endangered species I know).
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Re: end of game

Postby ralphmerridew » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:56 pm

Disabling all metaverbs worked okay in Fail Safe (though that game had extremely short playthroughs).
It worked in Kerkerkruip, but that game did have a "take chances" feel.
It didn't work at all in The Reliques of Tolti-Alph; that game was savaged.

For what reason are you trying to do that? The big effect will be to discourage the player from experimentation.
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Re: end of game

Postby Xenos » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:21 am

I can see times where you would want to disable Undo. For example, if you are playing a slot machine and you undo every time you "pull handle" and it doesn't come up with a Jackpot sort of takes away the point of taking the time to program a random factor.

And as for fights, the same thing could be true. Why would I take time to make a fun, interesting, and in-depth combat system if people will just "undo" every bad dice roll they get?

It amazes me how so many people get so upset when someone wants to do something a little differently. Maybe Highways has a plan to set restore points. The game could do an autosave at the beginning of the battle, and if you die, you don't "undo" (which would take back your last move but you're still almost dead) and you don't have to load your last save (because if you're like me, you always forget to do that, so you'd end up having to play the whole last 30 minutes again). At the end of a battle that kills you, instead of the standard options, you have the option to "Retry" which loads the autosave at the beginning of the battle and you're off. To me, that's a lot better option than what typically happens - and it's doable, so long as we know how to override the text at the end.
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Re: end of game

Postby Lazzah » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:41 am

Xenos wrote:I can see times where you would want to disable Undo. For example, if you are playing a slot machine and you undo every time you "pull handle" and it doesn't come up with a Jackpot sort of takes away the point of taking the time to program a random factor.

And as for fights, the same thing could be true. Why would I take time to make a fun, interesting, and in-depth combat system if people will just "undo" every bad dice roll they get?

It amazes me how so many people get so upset when someone wants to do something a little differently. Maybe Highways has a plan to set restore points. The game could do an autosave at the beginning of the battle, and if you die, you don't "undo" (which would take back your last move but you're still almost dead) and you don't have to load your last save (because if you're like me, you always forget to do that, so you'd end up having to play the whole last 30 minutes again). At the end of a battle that kills you, instead of the standard options, you have the option to "Retry" which loads the autosave at the beginning of the battle and you're off. To me, that's a lot better option than what typically happens - and it's doable, so long as we know how to override the text at the end.

For a start there is no "autosave" feature in ADRIFT - yet!

What highways wants to do isn't something "different", he just wants to go back to the early days of text adventures when there was no UNDO command in most adventure games. He and I may have had to do that in those days and, as he said, we just got on with it, we had no other choice. However, there is no need to inflict this on 21st century adventure players, many of whom weren't even born then.

The first ever adventure game I played in 1986, "Sphinx Adventure", didn't even have a SAVE GAME facility! If you got killed - which I did frequently - you had to restart the game from scratch and type in ALL the commands to get you to just before you got killed. There is absolutely NO WAY I would want to go back to doing that, even with the help of a macro. Can you imagine the frustration of getting almost to the end of a game, getting killed and then having, if highways had his way, to replay the game ALL the way through again and again until you got it right?

Been there, done it, do not wanna do it again! (sorry highways!)
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Re: end of game

Postby highways » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:19 pm

Xenos wrote: It amazes me how so many people get so upset when someone wants to do something a little differently.


Lazzah wrote: What highways wants to do isn't something "different", he just wants to go back to the early days of text adventures when there was no UNDO command in most adventure games.


I didn't realise I was going to upset the apple cart so much. You are of course both right. " Xenos", because quite correctly he says that I want to do something different, and that is my fundamental right as the writer. "Lazzah" on the other hand talks of 'days gone bye' when playing a text adventure was a sod because when you were out - that was it - and the only choice was to go back to the beginning.

It was not my intention that this would be the case as has already been pointed out, there is a 'save' module which the player can use as often as they like. Therefore there would be no going back to the 'old days'. The only game I have ever played was The Hobbit (many moons ago), and i'm not sure if there was a 'save' module in it. But I do remember having large sheets of graph paper all over the place, full of locations/directions/things to do/things NOT to do. I think if I were to play a game I would still adopt that method, so if I ran out of time (which again I believe is something that players don't like - a time element), I could see what I should not do the next time round.

This is the first adventure I have ever written, so I suppose some of my thoughts are from that game, others are completely new - and this is of course what makes them 'different'. As Lazzah pointed out, some people may not have been around in those days of 'The Spectrum' and so these thoughts/ideas are different because they are not part of the present day 'norm'.

I was very surprised at the comments from some of the 'big guns', in that my interpretation of what they are saying is that they will not play a game if they know they are going to be killed off. I thought that was what adventuring was all about. Doing something we wouldn't do in reality because of the danger involved. Doing something which competes one mind as [the player], against another mind [the writer], in that the writer is going to try and thwart me every step of the way.

I feel slightly upset over this attitude and wonder just where the 'sense of adventuring' or even the 'spirit of the game' has gone.

However, as always, I take these thoughts on board and will accept that most of you are aware/understand the minds of the people who will be playing the adventure and will therefore act/not act accordingly.

But..... as we started off.... my thoughts and ideas are different, and it would appear that my adventure is going to be unique in this day and age. But.... and this is probably the biggest difference of them all...
I am writing it for FUN, and thouroughlly enjoying it (frustration/anxiety attacks/warts an all) :) :x and although my 'ego' would like the world to know what I have done... it is not that important. To coin an old phrase "I have bested you" even before the adventure is on the market. Are you prepared to attempt to wrestle that "bested" from me.

Havn't talked so much in ages and hope that I havn't upset anyone. I still need the help of you more knowledgeable people.
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Re: end of game

Postby Lazzah » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:44 pm

Highways,

Nobody is saying that they would not play your game just because they knew they were going to be killed off. Any adventure player takes that event as part of the game. What we ARE saying is that we would not play your game if we were killed off and then got unceremoniously dumped back at the start of the game without being able to UNDO or RESTORE after being killed, which is what you said your intention was in your original post.

Don't worry, we are still here to help you whenever you need it, you can consider our replies to your posts in this thread a ham-fisted attempt to help you NOT to take the course you are intending! :)
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Re: end of game

Postby David Whyld » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:37 pm

I certainly wouldn't quit a game just because I knew there was a chance of being killed - that's a side effect of exploring and trying different things. My issue would be getting killed, then being unable to get out of that position save for going right back to the start of the game again. That would really discourage me from playing the game. Having the safety net of SAVE / UNDO isn't a bad thing at all. If anything, it encourages players to try different things because they know all their progress isn't lost in the event of a mistake.

I played The Hobbit as well and I remember it had a save game facility. In a game like that, with random deaths and combat, being able to save the game was a godsend. I wouldn't have had so much enjoyment with it if I'd had to replay it from the start every time I died.
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Re: end of game

Postby ralphmerridew » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:01 pm

What are you attempting to gain by forbidding UNDO if SAVE is still enabled? You're just making it annoying, like having non-skippable cutscenes.
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Re: end of game

Postby P/o Prune » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:49 pm

Personally I don't like to be killed in a game and have to start all over again :x
But I think that one of the rules in writing an adventure game is that you avoid "sudden or illogical death" situations. The idea of writing a game is to entertain and make whomever want to go on playing your game.
I remember back in the old days there was quite a few discussion in the forum about this and most people, players and authors alike didn't like the sudden death.
If the player does something stupid:
"You are standing on a balcony 100 feet above the ground"
>Jump
Then by all means kill the dumbass. s/he shouldn't probably have started playing IF anyway.

But
> Go east.
You're heading down the main steet when suddenly a meteor falls from the sky and kills you ... Is a big no-no
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