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ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:42 pm

David Whyld wrote:On the one hand: Lazzah has an unfair advantage because v4 is a lot quicker and easier to use*.

Well, David, it is going to be very interesting to see how much "quicker and easier" v4 is compared to v5, which I think that I am quite proficient in using. In any case, I am not an impatient person, as you confess to be, and am quite happy to take my time when using ADRIFT, whatever version. I don't see how I can have any advantage over you by using v4, as I am unfamiliar with using it and will probably be slower than you using v5.

It's like I say when I see all the commuters pushing onto an already crowded tube train at my local station when there is an empty train on the other platform going in the same direction which leaves in 5 minutes - "What's the hurry?!"
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lumin » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:45 pm

You guys and your crazy time zones, here we have something fun happening and I missed it all! :?
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby David Whyld » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:09 pm

Lazzah wrote:Well, David, it is going to be very interesting to see how much "quicker and easier" v4 is compared to v5, which I think that I am quite proficient in using. In any case, I am not an impatient person, as you confess to be, and am quite happy to take my time when using ADRIFT, whatever version. I don't see how I can have any advantage over you by using v4, as I am unfamiliar with using it and will probably be slower than you using v5.


Think of v4 as basically being v5 minus lots of unnecessary stuff you're never going to use. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised by it and might even wonder why you've been using v5 all these years when v4 can do the same job much easier.

From attempts to use v5 over the years, I can say I always found it slower. Much slower. It's the same system overall, just with lots of extras, but I never really found a use for any of the extras so for me it was an easy decision to stick with v4.

I suppose this is as good a time as any to ask: what can v5 do that v4 can't? I know it handles ambiguity better than v4 but I'm not sure of the other advantages and from my limited time using it, I didn't really notice anything else about it that made me think "I've got to use it".
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby rotter » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:53 pm

Just call me Larry. To be honest it is a long time since I've used V4 so my memory is a bit foggy. But after I used V5 for a bit I didn't want to go back to V4. Can't say which is better, but certain things did seem easier in V5. You cannot underplay the importance of better ambiguity - enter a V4 game into a major comp means loads of work to stop them lots over there ripping into the ADRIFT parser. The three types of tasks (General, Specific and System) makes this so much easier. Making it straight forward to create your own tasks which can then be referred to in the game over and over again. Specific tasks which can override another task or run before or after another. No need for external ALR files, Text Overrides being built in. Also you can create folders which means it is possible group things together anyway you like. Can V4 handle location/object groups? Cant' remember. But, they are great for actions you want to apply to a group of things.

But I agree you need to be a bit clickly at times when you want to do certain things. But haven't had a file corrupt yet in V5.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby David Whyld » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:14 pm

I always remember really disliking the three separate kinds of tasks in v5. After a single kind of task in v4, three different kinds in v5 seemed like three times too many. I'm sure there are advantages to them, but deciding which kind of task each one needs to be is a hassle compared to the v4 way. For me anyway.

Text overrides being built-in was also something I was never fond of. Maybe v5 has changed since I last used it, but I found it a pain keeping track of all the various overrides. In v4, they were all there in one ALR file so I could find and replace them whenever I wanted. In v5, I had to remember where I put them, and most of the time I couldn't remember. I might be remembering it wrong, though, so maybe there's an easy way to access them all that I don't recall.

Folders? I didn't like them much. Too much clutter on screen and I kept losing things. I'm not sure about object groups in v4, but it has location groups (never used them, so I can't say how useful they are).

Can you filter tasks by location in v5? I just had a look and the option seems to be missing. Or is that what folders are meant to be for (a separate folder for every room)? Also, how do you restrict a v5 task to a single location? By default, they seem to work in every location and you need to put in a restriction to make them only work in a single location, which seems like a lot more work than in v4.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby rotter » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:17 pm

Folders can be used or ignored. I used them for rooms, to group all the stuff in one place. But you can decide not to use them. Anything created then goes into the V5 default folders. So, that will include Text Overrides.

Tasks do work slightly different in 5, you can't lock them to one room/certain rooms on the first tab like in 4. But General Tasks can work exactly like V4. But also think of a General Task as being for new verbs. This is so Adrift can be made to give a proper default answer to the new verb. Yes, it is does need more work than V4 but you get a stronger game.

So, an example might be we need to be able to clean objects. We create a General Task of "clean object" with a task of "[clean/rub] %object%]" with a default response. We can make this only apply to cleanable objects (property or object group maybe). For specific objects to clean we then override the CLEAN command with Specific Task point directly at an object. Means no need for wildcards or entering every variant of an objects name. Yes, I can hear you saying it is a lot more work. Yes it can be, but you can still using a General Task in the V4 way.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby saabie » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:56 pm

Use the map to create your rooms and exits, its so much faster than using the directions page of locations.
1. Double click map to create a location
2. Immediately type the location's name (before clicking on anything)
3. Move the location to where you want it
4. Double click on the little square for a direction that you want an exit to be
5. Click on the corresponding exit of the destination
You can finish the whole layout for a game in less than a minute.
I suggest you put each floor on a different page as you don't like the 3-D up/down connections.
Then double click on each location to add the long description, movement restrictions and objects (Which can be created on the "Contents" page so you don't need to specify the location manually).
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lumin » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:06 am

The main benefit of v5 for me is still custom properties, although I've never made a game that uses them yet and most likely will continue to not do that. But in theory it's nice to be able to reference a bunch of things in a category and set behaviors for them all at once.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby David Whyld » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:12 am

I've had a mess around with the v5 Generator / Developer and can't say I like it much. Yeah, I can kinda see the advantage of creating rooms via the map and then adding the contents that way but it still seems like a lot of extra work over the v4 way of doing things.

For example, in v5 to have a static item in more than one location, you have to create a location group and put the locations you want in it. In v4, you just click the locations you want in the right hand tab. Two different ways of doing things, but it seems much quicker and easier in v4. Unless I'm missing something and there's a better way of doing it than this?

I suppose what it boils down to is a case of how much extra work you want to put in in order to write your game. Could I write a better game in v5 than in v4? Technically, yes. But is the extra work worth the effort? That's debatable. The end result is going to be a very similar game no matter which version of ADRIFT you use.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:42 pm

David: Do you accept the challenge or not?????????
OUT NOW: Run, Bronwynn, Run!
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby David Whyld » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:39 pm

I thought I had done but obviously not. Yes, I accept it. Prepare to get your ass handed to you on a silver platter (which, incidentally, will feature in the game's winning solution if you happen to get that far).

It's on :)
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:03 pm

David Whyld wrote:I thought I had done but obviously not. Yes, I accept it. Prepare to get your ass handed to you on a silver platter (which, incidentally, will feature in the game's winning solution if you happen to get that far).

It's on :)

OK.

Rules: Minimum 10 locations, they cannot be "empty" ones. You must use at least one of ALL the features of v5 (tasks, events, variables, at least one of each type of object and one character) except for the conversation tab on characters and expressions. I never ever use the conversations tab in my games and rarely use expressions apart from the one for checking how many objects the player is carrying, i.e. %Player%.Held(False).Count <= 1, so asking you to use them would be unfair.

I will use ALL features of v.4....although as I have NEVER used v4 in my life I have no idea what features it has that are different from v5.

Closing date will be 28th February 2018, or sooner if both of us finish our games. Games MUST be fully playtested! When both games are finished they will be uploaded to the ADRIFT games website for judging by our peers.

Are you OK with that?
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby David Whyld » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:11 pm

Po already announced the competition here:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11785

My game is likely to be as simple as possible. I'm not fond of a lot of the features in v5 and I'm already finding it a pain, but I'm sure I can persevere with it long enough to force out one small game.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:31 pm

David Whyld wrote: Po already announced the competition here:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11785

Well, with all due respect to Po, he was butting into our thread and I didn't take much notice of what he wrote.

David Whyld wrote:My game is likely to be as simple as possible.

That's not the spirit, David, you should be trying to produce as good a game as you can, as I will be with v4.

David Whyld wrote:I'm not fond of a lot of the features in v5 and I'm already finding it a pain, but I'm sure I can persevere with it long enough to force out one small game.

Well I haven't started yet and, being used to v5, I will probably find v4 just as much a pain to use as you are finding v5.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby P/o Prune » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:36 pm

With the fair chance of getting my Viking butt kicked for butting in on this thread, I dare say that the rules are now copy/pasted into the Thunderdome thread.
may the least bad author win rofl
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