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ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

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ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:08 pm

Hi David,

David Whyld wrote:I'm actually surprised you don't use v4 yourself, Lazzah. You're one of the few people still regularly writing ADRIFT games and yet you've never even tried out the more popular version.

I don't NEED to David! V5 - even as unfinished and buggy as it is - fulfills ALL my needs to write a game. From what other people have said, v4 does not feature Properties, so why on earth would I want to even try a version of ADRIFT which is - IMHO - inferior to the one I am using?

You got used to V4 and love using it, so your loyalties lie with that version. I got used to V5 and love using it, so MY loyalties lie with that version. We will NEVER agree on this David, but as long as you keep slagging off V5, I will try to defend it. I just wish I was as eloquent as you are! :)
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby David Whyld » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:11 pm

You can use whatever version you want, Lazzah, but it's funny to hear you say v4 is inferior when by your own admission you haven't even used it.

As for why you should use v4: it's better, it's faster and it's easier.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lumin » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:40 pm

Image Image Image
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lumin » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:11 pm

But seriously though I feel like unless a game specifically requires the extra features of v5, it makes more sense to just use v4. Most games don't need the 'rocket science' and the extra clicking just gets in the way.

I don't actually care what other people prefer to use however, that's all a writing process thing while the only thing that really matters is the finished game. If v5 had a simple mode you could toggle that would be the best of both worlds IMO.


e: btw Lazzah, I was just browsing the main games page and it looks like all of your uploads have broken images
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby ralphmerridew » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:50 pm

Lazzah: How often do you access a property directly (that is, you use something like GoldCoin.Value) as opposed to indirectly (something like %Object%.Value)? (Syntax may be wrong; I haven't been looking at ADRIFT code much recently.) If you're only using properties directly, they offer only cosmetic advantage of ordinary variables.

Lumin: I think some of the most important feature additions in ADRIFT 5 can be things that the author isn't likely to notice explicitly; there are some things that an author needs to work at carefully to get them right under ADRIFT 4, while an author using ADRIFT 5 will get right by default.

Specifically, take cases like this:
- overriding a command whose object can be referred to by multiple names
- overriding a command whose object shares vocabulary with other objects

For an example of the first, see _The Plague Redux_. IIRC, you could refer to a bottle of water as either "bottle" or "water", and refer to person as "woman" or "kate", but "GIVE BOTTLE TO WOMAN" would give a fallthrough message indicating she didn't want it, while "GIVE WATER TO KATE" would solve the puzzle.
For the second, see the crystals from _Sophie's Adventure_. There were five of crystals (the Torazin crystal, the Mult crystal, and so on) scattered throughout one section of the game. If the player got one and waved it, then one barrier would be weakened and the crystal would disappear; using a total of three crystals would destroy the barrier. The player had to include the name of the crystal when waving it ("WAVE MULT" or "WAVE TORAZIN"), even if only holding one crystal ("WAVE CRYSTAL" would give a message that you needed to say which one.)

TADS, Inform, and Hugo have long had the default behaviors that the exact noun phrase doesn't matter; "GIVE BOTTLE TO WOMAN" or "GIVE WATER TO KATE" will be handled the same (assuming that the bottle of water is the only bottle or water present, and Kate is the only woman present; if there were other objects and the player went through appropriate disambiguation prompts, then that command would also be handled the same). Only if the author goes out of his/her way to fiddle with disambiguation are they different.

Similarly, TADS, Inform, or Hugo would have handled disambiguating the crystals without any particular effort by the author. If the player types "WAVE CRYSTAL", and there's only one crystal around, those systems would run the overridden command for waving that crystal. If there are two crystals around, and the player typed "WAVE CRYSTAL", the game would put up a disambiguation prompt. "WAVE CRYSTAL" / "Which crystal do you mean, the Mult crystal or the Torazin crystal?" / "MULT" is handled exactly the same as if the player had typed "WAVE MULT CRYSTAL".

And if I understand things correctly, ADRIFT 5 also gets those things right by default. (This is why ADRIFT 5 needs the distinctions of "General Task", "Specific Task", and "System Task".)

Unfortunately, the documentation for A5 is weak on this and doesn't do a good job of explaining those. The examples don't really demonstrate the improvements; the most advanced example, "Jack and the Beanstalk", is still something that could have been done in A4. People coming from A4 see the changes, but don't realize the advantages of those changes.

So I think A5 unfortunately combines some of the difficulties of more powerful systems with the limitations of less powerful systems.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lumin » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:55 pm

I know about the disambiguation issues, and yes, they were annoying, but we're supposed to be paying attention to details when writing a game anyway and that was something that could be easily worked around.

v5 is a great system, but it's one that after years I've still not been able to sit down and figure everything out about. Part of that is my attention span melting out my ears I know, but in v4 it simply wasn't necessary. I reinstalled it yesterday just to briefly check something out and had this powerful urge to start a new game right then and there because the entire thing was just these five sweet simple boxes and that was all that was needed. I can actually describe the feeling exactly: it was like my recent experience with coming across one of those awesome giant red tubs of Legos I used to have vs the sets with all the gimmicky fiddly bits kids get today, immediately going 'why the HELL don't they make them like this anymore' and then having to remind myself that I was an adult with grown up things to do and there was no time for dumping Legos on the floor and building a spaceship.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby David Whyld » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:22 pm

What Lumin said!

Sure, ambiguity is important and it's certainly caused me problems in the past with the way v4 handles it, but in the scheme of things it's a pretty minor irritant. There'd have to be one heck of a better reason to use v5 over v4 than "it handles ambiguity better" before I'd give v5 another shot.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:16 am

Lumin wrote:e: btw Lazzah, I was just browsing the main games page and it looks like all of your uploads have broken images

That's strange, Lumin, because I just looked at my games pages and all the correct images are displayed. Can someone else check this please?
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lumin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:50 am

Image

This is what I get, same on phone as the computer. Maybe force a refresh? You may be looking at cached images.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:40 am

Lumin wrote:Image

This is what I get, same on phone as the computer. Maybe force a refresh? You may be looking at cached images.

This is what I get on my smartphone, which I do not use to access the website normally. I will try from my colleagues computer/smartphone to see what happens.

Screenshot_20171120-103407.png
Screenshot_20171120-103407.png (402.84 KiB) Viewed 2007 times
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:02 am

Hi Lumin,

I just checked the ADRIFT games pages via my colleague's computer and, indeed, the images are missing. Not sure why this is. The images are stored in the "Please ignore this post!" message in the moderator's Staff Fun Palace and each adventure description has a link to it's cover image. I have just edited each game and just clicked on the "Update Adventure" button, all I can think to do.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby saabie » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:38 am

if I try to directly access the image at download/file.php?id=547 then I get the message "You are not authorised to download this attachment".
It looks like this file was marked "Moderators only" because it was attached to a moderators only forum.
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lazzah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:50 am

saabie wrote:if I try to directly access the image at download/file.php?id=547 then I get the message "You are not authorised to download this attachment".
It looks like this file was marked "Moderators only" because it was attached to a moderators only forum.

I used to be able to click on each image in the post and get a link to it, but now I can't, so something has changed since I posted the images - which was at Campbell's suggestion.

I will try posting them again in a different forum.

EDIT: Didn't work, something has changed and you cannot get a link to an image posted within a message here.

I tried uploading the images to my Dropbox, but they won't display either!

Any suggestions????????? :anyone:
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Lumin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:51 pm

saabie wrote:if I try to directly access the image at download/file.php?id=547 then I get the message "You are not authorised to download this attachment".
It looks like this file was marked "Moderators only" because it was attached to a moderators only forum.


Same for me. I'm not sure why Dropbox wouldn't work as long as they're set to be public though. Then again, I don't know much about Dropbox.

Lazzah wrote:Any suggestions????????? :anyone:


Maybe try imgbox or imgur?

Failing that, just accept that God is punishing you for trying to put an image on a text game. (and for liking v5)
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Re: ADRIFT v4 versus ADRIFT v5 (Larry & David only! :) )

Postby Denk » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:57 pm

I just tested if I could link to an image in the forums and it works (see "The Royal Puzzle" - will remove it again very soon). However, I could not easily obtain the address to the image with Windows 10 standard browser, so instead I used Google Chrome. In google chrome, when I right click on an image I get the option to copy the image address.

Hope you can get it to work.
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