Combined Library Release 2.1 Out

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Denk
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Re: Combined Library v2 discussion

Post by Denk »

In another thread ( viewtopic.php?f=6&p=108799#p108799 ), P/o Prune proposed to include what I call "ship directions", i.e. Fore/aft/starboard/port.

That is a good idea, as this might appear difficult to implement for many.

However, we can also make smaller modules, similar to the Money System and the Time System. Thus we could make a "ship directions"-module instead of including it in the Combined Library?

P/o Prune also proposed to include left and right. I have never seen a parser game where you navigate with left and right, probably because, if you turn around, what was left before is suddenly right. It could definitely be done, but I don't think it should be in a standard library. It could be an additional module like the Money System etc. If there is interest in a "left/right"-system I can look into it, but first, we should define how it should behave, as that is not obvious.

Again, please let me know what you think if it is relevant to you.
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Re: Combined Library v2 discussion

Post by ralphmerridew »

I think Rat in Control could be run with n/s/e/w or left/right, to compare the usabilities of the two.
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Re: Combined Library v2 discussion

Post by Denk »

ralphmerridew wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:58 pm I think Rat in Control could be run with n/s/e/w or left/right, to compare the usabilities of the two.
Thanks for the tip. I just tried it. In addition to "left" and "right", it uses "ahead" and "back". what is left/right/ahead/back depends on which way you are facing, which depends on where you entered the location. You can also "turn around" and "turn left" and "turn right".
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Release 2 beta demo with nautical directions

Post by Denk »

Hi All,

I have now implemented the nautical directions as well as Shoot/Fire tasks and added conversation tasks for improved features. I have not published the library yet.

Instead, I publish this demo, as I would like some feedback before I publish release 2 of the Combined Library.

This demo has been made specially to test the nautical directions:
CombiLibR2demo1.taf
(30.85 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
I am very open to ideas for changes, bug reports etc.
Thanks :Thanks:

(oh, and a screenshot so I hopefully can make you curious ;) )
Attachments
Hangar.png
Hangar.png (30.43 KiB) Viewed 312 times
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Lazzah »

Great stuff, Denk, but is it not possible to list available exits if you try to go in an invalid direction? "Here you can't go Aft." is not very helpful.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Denk »

Good idea. I hope it can be automated. If not, the author must add those manually. Will look into it.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Denk »

Lazzah wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:18 pm Great stuff, Denk, but is it not possible to list available exits if you try to go in an invalid direction? "Here you can't go Aft." is not very helpful.
A bug mentioned in another thread ( viewtopic.php?f=14&p=108841#p108841 ) makes it very difficult to add this functionality. Thus I will put the development of this feature on hold.

If someone would like me to release the library corresponding to the demo "CombiLibR2demo1.taf", let me know and I will release it. Otherwise, I do not plan to release version 2 until Campbell releases a version without the bug mentioned above.

In the meantime, feel free to propose improvements, e.g. if something you saw in the Inform library or in the TADS library would be good to include in this library. I don't think we should include everything from those but some should probably be included.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by P/o Prune »

It may not be a big thing, but I would like if the general task "Climb object" was split into two tasks.
1: Climb up object.
2: Climb down object.
Like I said, i may be a minor thing, but when you use a specific task to override the general climb object, the command line reads: climb up object no matter whether the player is supposed to climb up or down the object.
Personally I find it a little confusing. I have added my own general task to my taf file. But I think it would be an improvement in the developer.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Denk »

P/o Prune wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:56 am It may not be a big thing, but I would like if the general task "Climb object" was split into two tasks.
1: Climb up object.
2: Climb down object.
Like I said, i may be a minor thing, but when you use a specific task to override the general climb object, the command line reads: climb up object no matter whether the player is supposed to climb up or down the object.
Personally I find it a little confusing. I have added my own general task to my taf file. But I think it would be an improvement in the developer.
That's a good idea.

I have one question, which we might need a native English speaker to answer: does "climb object" (e.g. "climb ladder") always mean "climb up ladder", never "climb down ladder"?

If so, we should allow the player to simply type "climb object" to climb up, i.e. the word "up" should be optional when climbing up. Still, when you override the "climb up object" with a specific task, the command line will say "climb up object" so it is obvious that the task is for climbing up.

In any case, we need to decide what happens if the player simply types "climb object", as many text adventures accept that command.

EDIT: I also see that the standard library currently accepts e.g. "climb on ladder". What if the player types "climb on object"? Is that always equivalent to up or down or something else?
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Lakanar »

P/o Prune wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:56 am It may not be a big thing, but I would like if the general task "Climb object" was split into two tasks.
1: Climb up object.
2: Climb down object.
Like I said, i may be a minor thing, but when you use a specific task to override the general climb object, the command line reads: climb up object no matter whether the player is supposed to climb up or down the object.
Personally I find it a little confusing. I have added my own general task to my taf file. But I think it would be an improvement in the developer.
I had to do this for Final Girl. Early on, you have to climb up a tree, but as it is, there's no way to make you go down it(believe me I tried). So I split the command into two.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by R2T1 »

In English, CLIMB is a verb that has many ideas attached. (This is speaking as an Australian where we seem to use both British & Americian interchangably )
CLIMB (UP) ladder / tree/ stairs/ rope - all usually mean CLIMB UP. The word UP is optional.
CLIMB ON box/table/bed/etc - usually means CLIMB ONTO (a supporter)
CLIMB DOWN - generally means to come down from above somewhere. This can also be written CLIMB DOWN FROM something. Possibly CLIMB DOWN noun (rope/pipe/tree) refers to climbing using hands and feet as opposed to CLIMB DOWN stairs, etc where the action only involves using feet.
CLIMB OFF (supporter)- also synomous with GET OFF (supporter) or JUMP OFF/JUMP DOWN FROM (supporter)

I think that covers most of the common uses but there may be some unusual meanings but these should be coded by the author for the specific purpose required.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Denk »

R2T1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:57 am In English, CLIMB is a verb that has many ideas attached. (This is speaking as an Australian where we seem to use both British & Americian interchangably )
CLIMB (UP) ladder / tree/ stairs/ rope - all usually mean CLIMB UP. The word UP is optional.
CLIMB ON box/table/bed/etc - usually means CLIMB ONTO (a supporter)
CLIMB DOWN - generally means to come down from above somewhere. This can also be written CLIMB DOWN FROM something. Possibly CLIMB DOWN noun (rope/pipe/tree) refers to climbing using hands and feet as opposed to CLIMB DOWN stairs, etc where the action only involves using feet.
CLIMB OFF (supporter)- also synomous with GET OFF (supporter) or JUMP OFF/JUMP DOWN FROM (supporter)

I think that covers most of the common uses but there may be some unusual meanings but these should be coded by the author for the specific purpose required.
Thanks, this is very useful.

Very much in agreement with these, I propose:
CLIMB (UP) object task:

Code: Select all

[climb/clamber] {up} %object%
[move/walk/go] [up] %object%
CLIMB DOWN object task:

Code: Select all

[climb/clamber] [down] %object%
[move/walk/go] [down] %object%
CLIMB ONTO object task:

Code: Select all

[climb/clamber] [on/onto] %object%
[move/walk/go] [on/onto] %object%
CLIMB DOWN (no object):
simply add the verb "climb" to the player movement task. Then CLIMB DOWN means DOWN and CLIMB UP means UP etc. It will also be possible to CLIMB EAST and CLIMB WEST etc. which corresponds to GO EAST and GO WEST.

CLIMB OFF object:
Add CLIMB as a verb in the Leave task:

Code: Select all

[stand/get/move/go/climb] [out/off] {of} %object%
exit %object%
leave %object%
Regarding the behaviour of the three new general tasks, which replaces the original "climb objects" task:
1. CLIMB (UP) object task
2. CLIMB DOWN object task
CLIMB ONTO object task

I propose that the default behaviour for all three are "You can't climb the 'object'." Thus we will only need the three standard restrictions, i.e. check that the object exists, that it has been seen and that it is visible.

It could be argued, that the "Climb Onto Object"-task check if the object is a supporter. But often people create a new location, e.g "On top of the truck" or something like that instead of creating a supporter. Having a restriction that the object is a supporter will complicate such situations. Thus I propose to keep the restrictions at a minimum, so the task can "always" be overridden. The author can always add restrictions to the specific tasks. I generally propose to minimize the number of restrictions in general tasks. For instance, newbies often don't understand that they cannot override e.g. "take object" when the object is static.

Please comment if you think it should be different.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by R2T1 »

Looking good.
Just thought of another synonym for CLIMB - SCALE. As in Scale a wall or scale up/down a cliff, etc.

Otherwise I think you have caught the most common uses and authors can always override the case they need.
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Lazzah »

Being pedantic, what about ASCEND and DESCEND?
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Re: Combined Library Release 2 Demo (beta)

Post by Lazzah »

I wouldn't consider STAND OFF or OUT OF OBJECT as being correct English. I could never understand why this was a verb used in the original command line. STAND UP or STAND ON OBJECT are the only instances where I might use that verb in normal speech.
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