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The THUNDERDOME

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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby Lazzah » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:20 am

Jeez, in v4 you can only set an alternative text description in a message which is controlled by a task being complete! Or am I missing something?
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby David Whyld » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:36 am

I know you don't like v4, Lazzah, but I don't see why you feel the need to wage this campaign of hate against it.
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby Lazzah » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:02 pm

It's not that I don't like v4, David, I have never used it before now, but I can see why Campbell decided to upgrade it to v5. I go to do something I have got used to doing in v5 only to find the facility doesn't exist in v4. v4 is simply too simple for my needs, if you'll excuse the pun. You don't like v5 because of the so-called complexity, but I see no reason to use v4 - even if it is "easier and quicker" - because it lacks the level of complexity of v5 that I have got used to using. Having said that, Campbell has made it TOO complex by adding all these new functions and expressions, something that I believe puts a lot of people off using ADRIFT. I thank the stars that he didn't do away with the old type of functions, as if he had then I would not be able to use ADRIFT any more
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby David Whyld » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:12 pm

To be honest, I'm not sure this competition is really going anywhere. I don't like v5, Lazzah doesn't like v4, and I'm losing enthusiasm for the whole thing. What I thought might be an amusing little diversion has instead turned into one boring argument after another and I don't see my game coming to much, if indeed I ever get it finished.

Which is another way of saying: I'm withdrawing from the comp. I'd much sooner write a game I actually want to write and v5 just isn't for me.

Best of luck, Lazzah. You should at least have a fair chance of winning this now :)
Last edited by David Whyld on Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby Lumin » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:08 pm

Ah well, sorry to hear it, but it's pretty clear by now no one's changing their mind about anything, or having any fun either. You guys maybe used up a little too much of your fighting spirit in the thread instead of the games. :P

I'm still holding out hope that saabie's updated runner will revitalize things around here a bit and make the version used moot; once he gets to the backwards compatibility part there will be no reason not to write a game with whichever one prefers.
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby rotter » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:27 pm

David Whyld wrote:With the exception of Po Prune and BBBen (maybe a few others, but I don't recall any names off hand), all of the drifters who used v4 have yet to write even a single game in v5. I guess we can also add Rotter to that list because I know he's still using ADRIFT and is likely to release a game with it one day. That's three still "happily using v5" compared to over a hundred who gave up. I guess they didn't like the complexity.


Yes, add me to the list. I have my sights on a SpringThing V5 entry at some point, maybe 2018 but not sure. Although I have been spending most of my recent IF time using Inform 7, I still like to dabble with my only V5 project - Blank Wall. I do find V5 a bit clicky to do things and I can seem to spend a loads of time scrolling up and down lists when creating tasks. But, actually I quite like it and could not see myself going back to V4. I would feel pretty confident releasing a V5 game into the mainstream IF world. The issue I would have is with the runner and its ability to run on different platforms, including online. They don't all use Windows over there in that world (like Emily Short). Also although I prefer to run offline I know from my recent IFComp game loads of people do like to play online. Once people start playing your IFComp entry you can see the online transcript files on the comp site. I was really surprised just how many people do play on the Interweb.
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby Lumin » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:45 am

I think if I tried to do a really big, complex game with simulation aspects like the one I spent so much time plotting out in the past I'd go with v5 simply because I'd need custom properties, but realistically, I'm only going to be taking on small, normal projects I have a reasonable chance of finishing, assuming I'm ever able to get around to getting back into attempting IF writing again at all. Basically, I see v5 as useful if you specifically need the added features, but otherwise v4 is just simpler and faster to work with. And no, it's not just nostalgia or what I'm familiar with or whatever. I've spent a lot of time in the manual for v5, while I was far dumber 14 years ago and yet v4 just required a few minutes of clicking around. I still remember the little forest shack and surroundings I put together my first time installing the demo version. (And all the big, stupid dreams of creating an entire kingdom that worked basically as a single-player MUD...)
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby rotter » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:15 am

Lumin wrote:I think if I tried to do a really big, complex game with simulation aspects like the one I spent so much time plotting out in the past I'd go with v5 simply because I'd need custom properties, but realistically, I'm only going to be taking on small, normal projects I have a reasonable chance of finishing, assuming I'm ever able to get around to getting back into attempting IF writing again at all. Basically, I see v5 as useful if you specifically need the added features, but otherwise v4 is just simpler and faster to work with. And no, it's not just nostalgia or what I'm familiar with or whatever. I've spent a lot of time in the manual for v5, while I was far dumber 14 years ago and yet v4 just required a few minutes of clicking around. I still remember the little forest shack and surroundings I put together my first time installing the demo version. (And all the big, stupid dreams of creating an entire kingdom that worked basically as a single-player MUD...)


The problem will be that if you release your V4 game on here hardly anyone will play it (look at recent comps). Release a V4 game out in the wider IF world and all the old moans about ADRIFT will resurface, particularly around the parser.

I will agree that it is not quite as easy to create a game in V5 as it was in V4. But it is perfectly possible to do a V4 style game in V5. This then gives the added benefit of being able to add some of the clever features later as you get to understand then. Unless you are going to try something clever you can stay away from the more difficult features in V5. No need to go anywhere near the "rocket science" as Lazzah calls it. Just stick with General Tasks and the old V4 way -

adrift Code: Select all
give *paper* to *jones*
X *door*


etc.
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby Lazzah » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:14 am

Lumin wrote:....or having any fun either.

I wouldn't say that. I have found working with v4 quite interesting, seeing how it differs from v5. It annoys me when I find there is something missing from v4 that I am used to using in v5, but I just had to work with it. I had intended to do the best job I could with v4, but obviously David didn't enter into this with the same attitude. I think I will continue with the game and may even enter it in one of the ADRIFT competitions in the future!
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby David Whyld » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:31 am

Lumin wrote:I'm still holding out hope that saabie's updated runner will revitalize things around here a bit and make the version used moot; once he gets to the backwards compatibility part there will be no reason not to write a game with whichever one prefers.


I have high hopes for Saabie's Runner and really feel this is the way things should have been since the start: one Runner which runs any ADRIFT game, no matter which version it was written in. It would seem the obvious solution to the problem, but whenever I've mentioned it in the past it's never got any proper response from Campbell. I don't know why. I used to assume there was some programming issue with it, but if Saabie can get it working then I see no reason why Campbell couldn't. I mean, he wrote ADRIFT in the first place so he should be in the best position to do something like that.

Rotter wrote:The problem will be that if you release your V4 game on here hardly anyone will play it (look at recent comps). Release a V4 game out in the wider IF world and all the old moans about ADRIFT will resurface, particularly around the parser.


I don't know. In the recent minicomp, my v4 game got roughly the same number of plays as the v5 games. The issue with the old moans about ADRIFT is probably still true, though. The rest of the IF world have never really warmed to ADRIFT, no matter the version used, and likely never will now that development seems to have ground to a halt. Saying that, they never warmed to Quest either and yet a Quest game came 3rd in the IFComp a few years back and a few ADRIFT games have made it to the top 10, so despite the general negative attitude towards ADRIFT, if you write a good enough game people will still say nice things about it.

I suppose a lot of it is down to how much effort you're willing to put into a system in order to make the best game possible. Could I make a better game with v5 than v4 if I was willing to put the extra time and effort in? Yes, almost certainly. But then why use ADRIFT at all? Why not throw myself into mastering Inform 7, the most popular and widely used system out there with the largest user base and a great reputation to boot? I'm sure I could do things with that that no version of ADRIFT could handle. At the end of the day, I was always happy with v4 and never saw the need for the added complexity of v5 and, from what I've seen of the v5 games I've played, they don't do anything that v4 couldn't do ten years ago. So until I want to do something in a game that I literally can't do with v4, something that only v5 can do, then it's v4 I'll be sticking with.
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby Campbell » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:03 am

The object was always for the v5 Runner to run v4 games. I think when this has come up before I always asked for examples that I could work on to sort out (with specific steps to reproduce issues that behaved differently). Without these, it's very difficult to just "know" what's wrong.
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Re: The THUNDERDOME

Postby Denk » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:49 am

Campbell wrote:The object was always for the v5 Runner to run v4 games. I think when this has come up before I always asked for examples that I could work on to sort out (with specific steps to reproduce issues that behaved differently). Without these, it's very difficult to just "know" what's wrong.
If you or anyone are still interested in reproducable examples I am willing to help. It is not too late to make the V5-runner work with V4-games.

Campbell or anyone, are you still interested, if so I can quickly find some examples from e.g. Cursed and Ghost Town? Should we make a separate thread on "V4 to V5 conversion bugs"?
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