ADRIFT Forum


The place to discuss the ADRIFT Interactive Fiction toolkit

Adrift Annual Award

The home for all discussion of competitions for ADRIFT and multiformat IF

Adrift Annual Award

Postby P/o Prune » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:29 am

Considering all the talk there has been about this years Annual Adrift Award, especially regarding the voting system, I thought that I'd create a topic where we can discuss how we make the best possible award system (or whatever you want to call it.)

So this is the place to come up with suggestions and hopefully we'll come to some sort of agreement that we can all accept.

This topic will be open until the end of 2020. It will then be locked and we will use whatever we have agreed on. Should someone suddenly find the philosopher's stone it can, of course, be implemented.
D-Day in progress 86Kb (Slowly drifting)
Just a Fairy Tale: 138Kb
User avatar
P/o Prune
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:18 am
Location: Denmark
Points: 93

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby P/o Prune » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:34 am

Since I'm already logged in, let me be the one to break the ice.

The award should be run on a set date every year and should be announced 3 weeks in advance (just as a reminder)
The games will still be taken from the main site, but people are more than welcome to suggest Adrift games that are posted elsewhere.
The voting will be anonymous.

Question:
Should AIF games be allowed? (Provided I can find a way to keep them away from minors)

Ok. Now it's your turn.
D-Day in progress 86Kb (Slowly drifting)
Just a Fairy Tale: 138Kb
User avatar
P/o Prune
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:18 am
Location: Denmark
Points: 93

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby Denk » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:19 pm

P/o Prune wrote:The award should be run on a set date every year and should be announced 3 weeks in advance (just as a reminder)
Good idea. However, if it is not possible to live up to the intended deadline, the date can be pushed. It would be a shame to cancel the award just because we didn't manage to do it in time.

P/o Prune wrote:The games will still be taken from the main site, but people are more than welcome to suggest Adrift games that are posted elsewhere.
I think the organizer should propose the nominees when the award is announced 3 weeks in advance. That proposal will probably be the games uploaded to the ADRIFT site. Then the rest of us have three weeks to inform you about games which should be added to the list and games which should be removed from the list.

P/o Prune wrote:The voting will be anonymous.
Fine with me. If we go for a poll, I suppose the poll is constantly showing the status of the poll, though we do not know who voted. That isn't a problem for me.

P/o Prune wrote:Question:
Should AIF games be allowed? (Provided I can find a way to keep them away from minors)
I don't mind if the game is AIF as long as it is stated clearly, that this is an AIF. But if no-one proposes to include an AIF-game (I wouldn't), they will not be included.

About the voting system:
I would either prefer a poll or a very specific point system as proposed below.

Polls:
I look at a poll this way. Voting for a game in a poll means you enjoyed it. The game with the most votes is the game that most people enjoyed. A standard poll could certainly be accepted. However, I would prefer to give voters two votes, because they may like more than one games. Votes can be regarded as "Nice, someone liked my game.". I am aware that we could also give voters 3,4 or 5 votes etc. but I guess we have to stop somewhere.

Point system: If we go for a point system I think we should use the same system as IFcomp: People can give 1-10 points to any game they like. The winner is NOT the game with most points since this would favour the games which got played the most. Instead, it is the game with the highest AVERAGE score. Example: Game A gets the scores: 3, 4 and 5. The average score is (3+4+5)/3 = 4. Game B gets the scores: 5 and 2. The average score is (5+2)/2=3,5. Game A has the highest average score and therefore wins over Game B. All average scores should be published after the voting period, since this is a kind of feedback to the author. Ideally, we publish histograms as they do in IFcomp (I can help with that).

General:
Instead of discarding something nice, e.g. not including games which have not been uploaded to the ADRIFT site or discarding a point system because it seems time-consuming etc., please use the community. Some of us can certainly help out with which games should be included or how to calculate the average score etc. And it doesn't always have to be P/O Prune organizing the Annual Award if he is too busy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bash Saga:
1. The Dragon Diamond 2. The Way Home 3. Stone of Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
Denk
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Hjørring, Denmark
Points: 251

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby David Whyld » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:35 pm

I can't remember the last time I heard mention of an AIF game here. Are people still writing them? The AIF Portal and AIF Archive both seem to have disappeared and the only AIFer I know who posted here has gone quiet as of late. Saying that, if someone wants to submit an AIF game to the awards, I don't see any issue with it.

As for voting, I'm more in favour of a standard 1 - 10 score instead of just giving people a single vote. I remember when KFAdrift used to run the yearly comp and he came up with all manner of different voting systems, none of which worked out very well. The problem with a single vote and very few games and potential voters is that you often end up with several games getting a single vote with no clear winner in sight. If we have to go along with the votes system, make it that everyone gets a vote and points to award depending on the number of games submitted. So with 10 games, we each get 10 votes (of 1-10) to assign to the games. Your favourite game gets 10, second favourite 9 and so on.

For the voting period, I'd propose three weeks as a minimum but extend it if we get a lot of games. Getting through a large number of games in a short period of time can be a pain. Take the IFComp for example. They had over 80 games this year to play and judge within a two month period. That's over two games a day every day for two months! Not with the best will in the world would I ever get through that many games. Now, I doubt very much we'll get anything like that many games here, but I'd hate to be in the position of playing through 20+ games in three weeks or not voting on half of them.
David Whyld
 
Posts: 7006
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:15 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 35

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby Denk » Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:48 pm

David Whyld wrote:As for voting, I'm more in favour of a standard 1 - 10 score instead of just giving people a single vote.
Okay, so does this mean that you prefer the IFcomp method where the game with the highest average score wins?

David Whyld wrote:If we have to go along with the votes system, make it that everyone gets a vote and points to award depending on the number of games submitted. So with 10 games, we each get 10 votes (of 1-10) to assign to the games. Your favourite game gets 10, second favourite 9 and so on.
Not exactly sure I understand the sentence "If we have to go along with the votes system, make it that everyone gets a vote and points to award depending on the number of games submitted."

Do you talk about combining a votes system with a points system?
Last edited by Denk on Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bash Saga:
1. The Dragon Diamond 2. The Way Home 3. Stone of Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
Denk
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Hjørring, Denmark
Points: 251

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby David Whyld » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:09 pm

Denk wrote:Okay, so does this mean that you prefer the IFcomp method where the game with the highest average score wins?


Yes, it's worked fine there for how ever many years the IFComp has been running. Why not here as well?

Denk wrote:Not exactly sure I understand the sentence "If we have to go along with the votes system, make it that everyone gets a vote and points to award depending on the number of games submitted."

Do you talk about combining a votes system with a points system?


Basically, you get a number of points based on how many games have been entered. Assume 10 games, then you vote for each game with 10 for your favourite game, 9 for your 2nd, right down to 1 for your 10th favourite game. If it's only four games that get entered, you vote 4 for the best game, 3 for the second, etc.

But I'd just prefer the basic 1 - 10 score system anyway.
David Whyld
 
Posts: 7006
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:15 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 35

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby Denk » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:24 pm

David Whyld wrote:
Denk wrote:Okay, so does this mean that you prefer the IFcomp method where the game with the highest average score wins?


Yes, it's worked fine there for how ever many years the IFComp has been running. Why not here as well?

Denk wrote:Not exactly sure I understand the sentence "If we have to go along with the votes system, make it that everyone gets a vote and points to award depending on the number of games submitted."

Do you talk about combining a votes system with a points system?


Basically, you get a number of points based on how many games have been entered. Assume 10 games, then you vote for each game with 10 for your favourite game, 9 for your 2nd, right down to 1 for your 10th favourite game. If it's only four games that get entered, you vote 4 for the best game, 3 for the second, etc.

But I'd just prefer the basic 1 - 10 score system anyway.

Great, so we are at least two who can agree on a system, i.e. the same system as IFComp. I did not understand why you mentioned the latter more restricted point system where you should rank all the games, but I guess it doesn't matter since we both prefer the IFComp system. :)

Hopefully, some more 'drifters will join the discussion and say which system they prefer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bash Saga:
1. The Dragon Diamond 2. The Way Home 3. Stone of Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
Denk
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Hjørring, Denmark
Points: 251

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby Lumin » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:05 pm

The IFComp system has worked all this time, that seems the practical thing to go with.

I guess it's possible having significantly less voters will make a difference there, but if people make good faith attempts to actually play the games and participate then just averaging the scores should work. Assigning a score to each game is better than spreading a finite number of points around and having no clear winner, as David pointed out.
User avatar
Lumin
 
Posts: 2151
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:48 pm
Points: 49

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby David Whyld » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:43 am

Denk wrote:Great, so we are at least two who can agree on a system, i.e. the same system as IFComp. I did not understand why you mentioned the latter more restricted point system where you should rank all the games, but I guess it doesn't matter since we both prefer the IFComp system. :)


That was just my backup preference if no one liked the 1-10 voting system. I always feel 1-10 works best and never understand why we use all these other systems. Polls are always especially bad as they're way too open to manipulation. The last comp I entered here a couple of years back had a poll and at the time I voted, the game which eventually won was level with mine. If I'd voted for my game (which I could have done because there was nothing stopping me), I'd have won. Believe me, it was certainly tempting.
David Whyld
 
Posts: 7006
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:15 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 35

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby Denk » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:57 pm

Another idea: I announced the ADRIFT Annual award on intfiction.org and said they needed to create a user-name on the ADRIFT site to vote. However, most of us have a username on intfiction.org too, so unless we make a poll, people from intfiction.org might as well PM the organizer with their votes through intfiction.org. We would probably get much more voters.

We could do that next year. Furthermore, we should mention that we are using the same system as IFcomp, which they are probably familiar with (if we agree on that, i.e the winner will be the game with the highest AVERAGE score which will be less than or equal to 10 ). I can imagine that the system we are using this year might have scared some potential voters away due to the weaknesses of that system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bash Saga:
1. The Dragon Diamond 2. The Way Home 3. Stone of Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
Denk
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Hjørring, Denmark
Points: 251

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby saabie » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:22 am

With a small number of voters it is more important for the voters to be consistent in what they mean by a certain score, so there should be some guidance that they can follow.
It is also easier for people to understand a "star" rating where you award 0 to 5 stars, but which is still a 0 to 10 score as you can award half-stars to separate two games that would otherwise get the same score if you like one more than the other.

The ratings could be something like this:
NO STARS: Unplayable rubbish.
ONE STAR: Below average.
TWO STARS: Average game.
THREE STARS: Good. I liked this game.
FOUR STARS: Excellent. Highly recommended.
FIVE STARS: Magnificent. The best game I've played in a long time.
3.5_Star.PNG
3.5_Star.PNG (3.34 KiB) Viewed 3232 times
saabie
 
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:07 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Points: 50

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby P/o Prune » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:24 pm

I was just casting my votes for the Adrift Annual Award.
I had a hard time figuring out which games to vote on, And when that was finally done I could start tearing my hair out trying to decide how many points to give each game. You want to give every game you've chosen a number of points (otherwise you would have chosen those games) then you'd automatically have to deduct from another game which isn't fair if you really believe that that game deserved those points.

So I have decided that solution is probably the best way of doing things. You would only be allowed to give 5 stars one time, since only one game would fulfill the criteria. But the rest of the games is all up to your choice.
If this is agreeable to us all, I'll set it up for next years Adrift Annual Award.
D-Day in progress 86Kb (Slowly drifting)
Just a Fairy Tale: 138Kb
User avatar
P/o Prune
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:18 am
Location: Denmark
Points: 93

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby Denk » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:28 pm

P/o Prune wrote:So I have decided that solution is probably the best way of doing things. You would only be allowed to give 5 stars one time, since only one game would fulfill the criteria. But the rest of the games is all up to your choice.
If this is agreeable to us all, I'll set it up for next years Adrift Annual Award.

Just want to mention that in the above posts, Lumin, David Whyld and I all prefer the IFcomp system (1-10 points, Best average score wins, do NOT rate games you haven't played)

saabie is fundamentally right that a 5-star system can be equivalent if we allow for half stars. I think IF-players have often rated games in IFcomp so they should be familiar with the 10-point system. They might also like a 5-star system since it is commonly used, e.g. on IFDB and Ectocomp. But in all these cases you cannot award zero points/stars. I think we should stick to systems they are familiar with, so it shouldn't be possible to award zero points/stars.

Finally, if you go for a 5-star system people should be allowed to give games the same rating if they think they are equally good. Thus I do not agree with the proposal that only one game can be given 5 stars.

Anyway, I still prefer the IFcomp system (1-10 points, Best average score wins, do NOT rate games you haven't played) over the other proposed systems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bash Saga:
1. The Dragon Diamond 2. The Way Home 3. Stone of Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
User avatar
Denk
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Hjørring, Denmark
Points: 251

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby David Whyld » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:35 pm

My vote is still for the 1 - 10 system and vote for games however you see fit. It's worked fine for years in the IFComp? Why complicate things unnecessarily?
David Whyld
 
Posts: 7006
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:15 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Points: 35

Re: Adrift Annual Award

Postby P/o Prune » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:51 pm

My bad, David.
I had misunderstood the concept of the 1-10 scale.
It will be implemented in the next Adrift Annual Award ...
D-Day in progress 86Kb (Slowly drifting)
Just a Fairy Tale: 138Kb
User avatar
P/o Prune
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4638
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:18 am
Location: Denmark
Points: 93

Next

Return to Competitions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest