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Annual IF Comp 2018

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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby David Whyld » Fri May 03, 2019 8:49 pm

If I gave a damn, I'd answer that. As I don't, I won't.

I'll ask again: what does any of that have to do with whether parser and CYOA should be judged separately in the IFComp?
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby The0didactus » Fri May 03, 2019 9:03 pm

people need to know which category to enter their game in, as I said earlier.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby Lumin » Fri May 03, 2019 10:57 pm

David Whyld wrote:I'll ask again: what does any of that have to do with whether parser and CYOA should be judged separately in the IFComp?


If there's no clear distinction between them, how do you do this?
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby David Whyld » Fri May 03, 2019 11:01 pm

The distinction’s clear enough to me as I said before. Beyond that, I’m really not that bothered.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby Lumin » Fri May 03, 2019 11:07 pm

Maybe a more realistic option would be Traditional vs Non Traditional. But then again that would mean there'd have to be an agreed upon list of things a Traditional game could do and not do, and I just imagine the IF community as a whole agreeing on anything and lol.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby The0didactus » Fri May 03, 2019 11:11 pm

David Whyld wrote:The distinction’s clear enough to me as I said before. Beyond that, I’m really not that bothered.


It's difficult to get behind a change into two categories when the distinction between the two categories is "whatever I think and beyond that I'm not really bothered by it"

Sorry if I'm being pedantic about this, it is possible that you are approaching this with more experience and judgement than me, so it's plainly obvious to you what the distinction is...but it's not plainly obvious to me what the distinction is and I'm quite certain I'm not the only one.

EDIT:
Lumin wrote:Maybe a more realistic option would be Traditional vs Non Traditional. But then again that would mean there'd have to be an agreed upon list of things a Traditional game could do and not do, and I just imagine the IF community as a whole agreeing on anything and lol.


And this is exactly it. Lux seems to be a bog standard "traditional IF game" (Inventory, movement through rooms, puzzles based on item interactions and descriptions) in a manner quite similar to alias the magpie...contrast this with Ostritch, where you basically just redact a bunch of text and that's the whole game. This is very "nontraditional" but you could make it as a parser or a click-based game.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby Lumin » Fri May 03, 2019 11:50 pm

The0didactus wrote:And this is exactly it. Lux seems to be a bog standard "traditional IF game" (Inventory, movement through rooms, puzzles based on item interactions and descriptions) in a manner quite similar to alias the magpie...contrast this with Ostritch, where you basically just redact a bunch of text and that's the whole game. This is very "nontraditional" but you could make it as a parser or a click-based game.


Just repeating from the Discord here, but after thinking about it, the answer to what makes a game a real IF game to me has more to do with the IF style map and inventory system than anything else. There are a few games on CYS I consider to be closer to traditional IF than CYOAs. Not much difference between typing 'n' and clicking 'go north' after all, and collecting keys and items to progress works essentially the same way for both.

But how all that would be written out in a way that didn't allow for confusion for the purposes of a major contest is anyone's guess. Nobody seems to be able to come up with anything conclusive even just in this thread among the handful of us...although this thread has kept me checking back in multiple times today which is more than any discussion here has done for a long time. :D



e: Started to muddy the waters even further here with getting into the wonderful world of text games with skill checks and dice combat...that whole separate genealogy that has existed as CYOA books and in parser and ASCII form and could theoretically also be entered into the IF contest, but that would almost need to be its own thread so I think I'll just come back to the subject later.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby The0didactus » Sat May 04, 2019 12:43 am

I had three childhood experiences with text-based interactive fiction as I understand it:
* Choose your own adventure books
* Cheesy text based games made in, say, visual basic, which usually involve generic combat and maybe 1-2 puzzles
* Games like zork

I borrow elements of each when I make games, and also from games like Kings Quest (limited inventory point and click adventures) and Myst (haunting, vaguely lonely puzzlers).
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby David Whyld » Sat May 04, 2019 6:52 pm

Lumin wrote:Maybe a more realistic option would be Traditional vs Non Traditional. But then again that would mean there'd have to be an agreed upon list of things a Traditional game could do and not do, and I just imagine the IF community as a whole agreeing on anything and lol.


It's a moot point anyway. No one here has any say in the way the IFComp is run or can affect the way games are categorised in it. Sure, I imagine we could put forward a list of proposals but it's not like anyone in a position to do anything would listen or decide to change the comp based on what we propose. Whatever we think, it's irrelevant in the scheme of things.

The0didactus wrote:Sorry if I'm being pedantic about this, it is possible that you are approaching this with more experience and judgement than me, so it's plainly obvious to you what the distinction is...but it's not plainly obvious to me what the distinction is and I'm quite certain I'm not the only one.


Unless the IF scene has changed greatly since I last checked - about an hour ago - it's a fair bet that the great majority of games are going to be easy enough to classify. They're going to be either parser or CYOA. A few will be of the hybrid variety, which will be the only ones causing issues. Deciding which category these games need to be entered into shouldn't be an arduous task based on how few of them there'll be.

I stand by what I said before: parser and CYOA are two different kinds of games so it makes perfect sense to me that they should be judged differently.

And no, for the record, I don't consider CYOA to be "real IF" in the way that parser games are. But why is that a bad thing? I've written and played, and even paid real money, for CYOA games so it's not like I consider them inferior to parser. They're just different and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby The0didactus » Sat May 04, 2019 7:58 pm

Is Lux a parser?
Is Basilica De Sangre a parser?
Is Re: Dragon a parser?

These are 3 out of the top 30, for last year's IFCOMP, that's 10%, and I really don't think that's a weird year.

Edit: remember that by your own statements it is "unfair" to enroll your game in the "wrong" category. People will be upset, so the 3 people who made these games need to know what category to submit to.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby David Whyld » Sat May 04, 2019 8:16 pm

a) dunno never played it.
b) dunno never played it.
c) dunno never played it.

And there you go again: taking issue with something I haven't even said. Please, if you will, point me to the bit where I said it was unfair to enroll your game in the wrong category. Maybe you could quote me a few of the things I've supposedly stated to clear up all the confusion.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby The0didactus » Sat May 04, 2019 8:19 pm

David Whyld wrote:I'm not suggesting kicking CYOA games out of the comp, but merely putting them in their own category. However you stand on the whole "is CYOA proper IF?" debate, they are two different things so they should be judged on their own merits. On one level, TV shows and films are the same thing - a bunch of actors following a script - but they're always judged in separate categories. Why should IF and CYOA games be any different?


Are you saying it's OKAY to judge them together, or it's NOT OKAY to judge them together?

EDIT: Is your contention that there should be two separate categories, but it's more or less okay to enter whatever game you want into whatever category you want?
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby David Whyld » Sat May 04, 2019 8:31 pm

Not.

Yes and no.
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby The0didactus » Sat May 04, 2019 8:34 pm

Okay, so if I make a game like Basilica de Sangre that has an interface that can respond to both Clicking AND typing, whichever the player prefers, can I enter That into either category?
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Re: Annual IF Comp 2018

Postby David Whyld » Sat May 04, 2019 8:39 pm

That'd be for the IFComp mods to decide. Why do you assume you'd have any say in the matter?
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