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IF Comp 2011 Results

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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Duncan_B » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:34 pm

What's gotten you so bent out of shape about the Comp this year, David? I feel like there's more to it than just this one rule.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby David Whyld » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:44 pm

Nope, just that rule. For me, it's spoilt the whole idea of what a competition is supposed to be about and discouraged me from ever entering it again. I'm still clinging to the hope that it'll be changed for next year but something tells me we're stuck with it.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Po. Prune » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:59 pm

I have to agree with David on this one.
You create a piece of work and send it in for evaluation judged against others. That's what a competition is about. Not that people are allowed to update their works. I understand that David and I are a minority in this debate and so be it. But like I mentioned elsewhere, I am not going to participate in the IF Comp as long as the rule stands.
I honestly have read most, if not all, the reasons why this new rule is good or doesn't matter. Well, I feel it does and I find it unfair.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Duncan_B » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:00 pm

David Whyld wrote:Nope, just that rule. For me, it's spoilt the whole idea of what a competition is supposed to be about and discouraged me from ever entering it again.

Why? What is "a competition supposed to be about?" It seems like forbidding yourself from entering ever again, forever! seems like a giant overreaction to something that, overall, is helpful to players and to authors. I intend no offense, but you must realize that from an outside perspective you just look like a sore loser.

I honestly have read most, if not all, the reasons why this new rule is good or doesn't matter. Well, I feel it does and I find it unfair.

Feel it does what? How is it unfair? What changes have been made to games that so unbalanced the competition?

I remember when I entered the Comp, I would've killed for an update rule!
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby David Whyld » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:12 pm

Well, as I've been complaining about this rule since it was first introduced, weeks and weeks before the results were announced and I knew how my game was going to score, I don't know where the "sore loser" comment comes from. If you think the rule is fine, Duncan, good for you. I think it's awful and has ruined what was once for me the IF event of the year.

And, Prune, we're in the minority but not that much of one. If you look at the thread Campbell started on the IF forum - http://www.intfiction.org/forum/viewtop ... 6&start=50 - you can see that 42% of the voters think the rule is a bad one. True, the majority like it but 42% is still a pretty significant number. Hardly small enough that the organiser can just choose to ignore us.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Duncan_B » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:43 pm

The "sore loser" comment comes from watching you howl about this topic non-stop since the beginning of October.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby David Whyld » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:55 pm

And if I hadn't, any opposition to this rule would have died. You dislike something and want it changing, you don't make one little comment about it then hold your peace. You keep on harping about it until you get your point across.

In all honesty, the rule will probably stay and the IFComp will be worse for it, but it wasn't for lack of trying on my part.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Duncan_B » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:59 pm

I suppose I don't understand how you are seeing IFComp as being "worse" for this change.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Po. Prune » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:05 am

Duncan your remark about David keeping on with this subject reminds me of the German woman standing in the streets of Berlin in 1945 when the British marched through the town. She shouted to the troops as they marched by: "If you British just had given up that futile resistance in 1940, this would never had happened!" 8)

While you are right in saying that the games will improve by the updates that's not the point. The point (as I see it) is that there's a competition with a deadline. And by allowing the authors to update (develop) their game throughout the voting period takes away the whole concept of competition.
Just to put the subject to a test. Would it be ok if the participants of the Ectocom were allowed to update their games during the evaluation period?
The game entered had to be completed in 3 hours. the IF Comp game had a deadline too. I can't see the difference.

If people like the new rule, ok with me. but to me the concept of a competition is gone. It will be submitting a game and have a huge number of beta testers playing it.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby David Whyld » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:21 am

Duncan_B wrote:I suppose I don't understand how you are seeing IFComp as being "worse" for this change.


For me, allowing updates during the IFComp defeats the whole point of it being a competition. Namely that we’re meant to be deciding which is the best game, not the best game after half a dozen different updates based on feedback and reviews.

It also makes voting far more complicated than it has any need to be. If I play a game on day one, then that game is updated half a dozen times before the end of the comp, my vote for it might be inaccurate. I might give a low score to a game which has since been improved a great deal; likewise I could give a high score to a game which at the end of the comp doesn't deserve it. It’s unrealistic to expect people to play each new version of the game and then update their vote accordingly, which makes the process of allowing updates during the comp a very bad idea in my opinion. With this rule in place, there's no fair way of voting for the games short of playing each and every update of every game. Maybe some people don't give two hoots about fairness, but for me it’s one of the main reasons for the comp in the first place.

If authors complain that the old comp rules of not allowing them to fix updates was a problem, all I can say is: test your game better. Get better testers. If the first few people who played the game during the comp found bugs then clearly the author did a poor job of testing, or his testers did. The old rule bit me a few times with people coming across bugs that I missed, but that's my own fault for either rushing things to get them done in time for the comp deadline, or not allowing myself adequate time for testing and betatesting. Not once have I ever thought being able to update your game while the comp is in progress is a good idea.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby David Whyld » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:24 am

Po. Prune wrote:Would it be ok if the participants of the Ectocom were allowed to update their games during the evaluation period?
The game entered had to be completed in 3 hours. the IF Comp game had a deadline too. I can't see the difference.


Very good point.

Duncan, if I was to enter a game in the Ectocomp that I wrote in the 3 hour deadline, then I updated it to add a further 20 hours of game play, would you say I had abused the rule?
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Campbell » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:44 am

David Whyld wrote:If you look at the thread Campbell started on the IF forum you can see that 42% of the voters think the rule is a bad one. True, the majority like it but 42% is still a pretty significant number.
It's interesting to note that the No percentage has been steadily growing over the past few days. It was down at about 25%, and it's nearly an even split now.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Po. Prune » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:29 am

Just thought of something else regarding the updating of games during the competition.
If I download a game at the beginning of the competition and write a review about it. That review maybe competely off by the time the third or fourth update is released...
So you could theoretically end up with a bunch of reviews ranging from stay the Hell away from this game to Great game, a must play.

I read somewhere in the Intfiction.org that someone had the point of view that the IFComp is about getting better games... Wrong!
The IFComp is about creating a game within a certain deadline and then have it judged.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby dannychabino » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:18 pm

Po. Prune wrote:If people like the new rule, ok with me. but to me the concept of a competition is gone. It will be submitting a game and have a huge number of beta testers playing it.


Seems to me this point pretty much says it all.
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Re: IF Comp 2011 Results

Postby Campbell » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:22 pm

That is a very good point actually.
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