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My One and ONLY v4 Game!

This forum is the place to discuss the older ADRIFT versions 3.9 and 4.0.

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My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby Lazzah » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:08 pm

Hi folks, I hope you all have had a great Christmas!

I have spent today finishing off my v4 game and it is attached if you want to play it.

It has been very interesting using ADRIFT v4. Now I have at last used it, after 6 years of using ADRIFT v5, I can see the differences in the two versions. OK, v5 has its flaws and bugs but I consider it far superior to v4 in terms of what you are able to do with it. OK, it may take several more mouse clicks to do something in v5 than it did to do the same thing in v4, but SO WHAT!!?? Why the mad rush to get your game finished? I took just as long to produce this little game in v4 as I would've done in v5, probably longer actually because of my unfamiliarity with v4.

Anyway, here it is: THE DELIVERY.

The Delivery.taf
(7.44 KiB) Downloaded 34 times


If you do play it, I hope you enjoy it!

Now to get back to work on "Magnetic Moon" using ADRIFT5 - I have SO missed you!!

P.S. I tried this game using the v5 runner and it appears to work OK.
OUT NOW: Run, Bronwynn, Run!
Current W.I.P.: Magnetic Moon
Also available: The Axe of Kolt, The Spectre of Castle Coris, The Fortress of Fear, Die Feuerfaust - The Fist of Fire and The Lost Children
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby David Whyld » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:05 pm

Congrats on getting your game done, Lazzah, but I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to bash v4 so much in your post. It's almost like you can't get through an entire sentence without reminding us, repeatedly, that you don't like v4. And you accuse me of waging a campaign of hate against v5...
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby Lumin » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:24 pm

David Whyld wrote:Congrats on getting your game done, Lazzah, but I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to bash v4 so much in your post. It's almost like you can't get through an entire sentence without reminding us, repeatedly, that you don't like v4. And you accuse me of waging a campaign of hate against v5...


Image

I'm just sitting on the sidelines enjoying the heck out of this new relationship you two have with each other and your respective systems. Well, maybe not new exactly, but more pronounced now. (Sorry but I don't feel bad about that at all, this place goes back to being boring without it lol)

But hey we got a new game out of it even if I have no idea about any detail of the game yet since the entire OP was dedicated to something else, that'll be fun to play later I'm sure and so this contest was a win all around. I'll get my review up at some point, rest of this week will be a little hectic though.
Currently working on: Nada. Zip. Zilch. [Check this space later.]
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby rotter » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:46 pm

Lazzah wrote:Anyway, here it is: THE DELIVERY.


Well done Lazzah, I'll give it a try and let you know what I think.
Currently working on "The Blank Wall" in ADRIFT 5 and "Again and Again" in Inform 7.
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby Lazzah » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:42 pm

David Whyld wrote:Congrats on getting your game done, Lazzah, but I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to bash v4 so much in your post. It's almost like you can't get through an entire sentence without reminding us, repeatedly, that you don't like v4. And you accuse me of waging a campaign of hate against v5...

How exactly have I "bashed" v4, David? You repeated say that "I don't like v4". How can I "not like it" when, until the last couple of weeks, I have never ever used it? I have NEVER said "I don't like" v4. What I have said is that I have never felt the need to use v4 as for the past 6 years I have been using, and have got very familiar with, ADRIFT5. Now I have used both systems and can at last compare the two, I know I am right when I say that you can do far more with v5 than you can v4, even if it is "slower and more complex" to use. That is a fact and that's all I said.

ADRIFT4 is, in its own right, a perfectly good system for writing text adventures. IMHO it has, however, been superseded by a better system which gives you far more control over what you can do, even if it means a few more mouse clicks to achieve it. And PLEASE don't ask, David, "if that is the case why is nobody using it"! We've been over that time and time again!

I'll do a deal with you: I won't "bash" v4 any more so long as you don't "bash" v5 any more!

Lumin: Believe me, I look nothing like my avatar! Although, thinking back, I maybe did a bit about 40 years ago!!
OUT NOW: Run, Bronwynn, Run!
Current W.I.P.: Magnetic Moon
Also available: The Axe of Kolt, The Spectre of Castle Coris, The Fortress of Fear, Die Feuerfaust - The Fist of Fire and The Lost Children
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby David Whyld » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:49 pm

You really don't see it, do you, Lazzah? Your original post in this thread itself spends more time bashing v4 than it does announcing the new game you've written. You've basically spent the last few weeks looking for what you consider flaws in v4 just so you can announce them to the world, and making a special point of calling me out on them almost every time. I don't know if you're aware of this, but I'm not the guy who wrote v4. That was Campbell Wild. Similar surname, different guy. Maybe you should fire off a few e-mails to him about it. I bet he'd love to hear how a moderator on his own forum has been acting recently.
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby Lazzah » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:08 pm

Well, David, if you want to interpret my comments in this thread as "bashing" v4, then I can't stop you. Yes, I admit I have pointed out flaws in v4 but that was only to get back at you for all your v5 bashing. As for my status as a moderator, I realized long ago that I was not suitable for such a role, but as Campbell isn't around these days there's little point in asking him to remove me as a moderator, which I will do when - if ever - he comes back.

One of my New Year Resolutions will be not to offend you in any way, by "bashing" v4 or otherwise. I wonder if you can make it one of your resolutions not to bash v5 any more with comments such as "v4 is quicker and easier than v5", etc?
OUT NOW: Run, Bronwynn, Run!
Current W.I.P.: Magnetic Moon
Also available: The Axe of Kolt, The Spectre of Castle Coris, The Fortress of Fear, Die Feuerfaust - The Fist of Fire and The Lost Children
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby David Whyld » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:17 pm

I really don't see how me saying v4 is quicker and easier than v5 is bashing it. That's just my honest opinion. If I said beans were tastier than peas, is that me bashing peas? What I'd really like for one of your New Year Resolutions is for you to quit starting threads pointing out flaws in v4 and calling me out on them as if I was in any way at fault.
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby Lazzah » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:25 pm

David Whyld wrote:I really don't see how me saying v4 is quicker and easier than v5 is bashing it. That's just my honest opinion. If I said beans were tastier than peas, is that me bashing peas? What I'd really like for one of your New Year Resolutions is for you to quit starting threads pointing out flaws in v4 and calling me out on them as if I was in any way at fault.

David, I never meant to imply that YOU are at fault for the flaws in v4. If I gave that impression then I apologize. If you want to continue voicing your opinion about v4 being quicker and easier than v5, go ahead. Now I have used v4 I know in my mind that this is irrelevant and that while v5 may be "slower and more complex to use", you can do much, much more with it and this leads to a far better game. That is MY honest opinion.
OUT NOW: Run, Bronwynn, Run!
Current W.I.P.: Magnetic Moon
Also available: The Axe of Kolt, The Spectre of Castle Coris, The Fortress of Fear, Die Feuerfaust - The Fist of Fire and The Lost Children
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby rotter » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:31 pm

Bit of a mute point as to which is best/worse or quicker/slower anyway. The ADRIFT scheme is pretty much dead at the moment. Release a game on here and no-one will play it (look at recent comp stats). Release a V4 game into the mainstream and they rip into the parser etc, V5 is really only in beta (as far as I'm concerned), has no reliable online runner and does seem to have a proper multi-platform runner. No-one playing was the reason I stopped releasing ADRIFT games, nothing to do with V5.
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby David Whyld » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:18 pm

It's all a vicious circle really. People stop releasing games because they perceive no one will play them. With so few games being released, current people see the scene as dead and go elsewhere, meaning there's no one left to write or play games. Newcomers then see how lifeless the scene is and don't hang around for long. There's no obvious solution as to how to fix that. Maybe if someone wrote an epic ADRIFT game and won the IFComp with it, people might start paying attention to ADRIFT again, but the idea of an ADRIFT game winning the IFComp is about as likely as me winning the Lottery - and I don't even do the Lottery. (Saying that, a Quest game came third a few years ago, and Quest has traditionally had a worst reputation among the larger IF scene than ADRIFT, so I guess the possibility exists.)

I think one obvious problem that needs to be fixed, though, which I think pretty much everyone can agree on, is that we need to know what's going on with Campbell. With him running this forum and the main website, as well as being the sole person behind ADRIFT, it all comes down to him. If he's moved on, he needs to tell us so someone else can be appointed to run things in his absence; if he's coming back at some point, tell us.
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby Lumin » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:06 pm

rotter wrote:Bit of a mute point as to which is best/worse or quicker/slower anyway. The ADRIFT scheme is pretty much dead at the moment. Release a game on here and no-one will play it (look at recent comp stats). Release a V4 game into the mainstream and they rip into the parser etc, V5 is really only in beta (as far as I'm concerned), has no reliable online runner and does seem to have a proper multi-platform runner. No-one playing was the reason I stopped releasing ADRIFT games, nothing to do with V5.


A lack of potential players is pretty much exactly why I sort of drifted* off and why I'm all about the CYOAs now. The latest thing I posted on ChooseYourStory, I got eight comments within the first five days and 24 people have given it ratings. It's not even a story I like all that much, but even half that level of response would be a miracle for an ADRIFT game; and an IF game of any kind would require loads more time and dedication to complete in the first place.

*pun unintentional!

There was a point where I would have even gone with Quest over returning to ADRIFT. I was in regular contact with a few people who were still enthusiastic about making games over there, and furthermore people actually played and left questions and comments.

And then they did terrible, awful, inexcusable things to their forum so that option became moot, but in theory it's still an okay place to release games if you're not interested in the community itself. ADRIFT of either version I still find far, far preferable, but that's the rub. Doesn't matter how good a program is if no one cares to use it.

I don't think there's any denying that v5 coincided with the decline of activity here, but of course there are other factors too (such as the website becoming MUCH less acceptable as the years went by...) I always felt however that the features Campbell chose most to focus on with v5 were a misstep. I'd happily trade the bells and whistles and all the excess clicking for reliable online play/more attractive web design, (those kind of go hand and hand), and cross platform and backwards compatibility. The first two might not have mattered much to us regulars at the time, but I'm surprised they were considered unnecessary by someone with an eye toward the future of the program.

All doom and gloom aside, still probably gonna write a couple games next year just because I want to. I don't give a cr*p about the mainstream community at this point, although Stardog and saabie's projects both look like they'll address some of the usual complaints, as well as finally, finally resolving the 4/5 compatibility issues. That's 90% of the existing ADRIFT library that will suddenly be made more accessible again.

Wherever this weird Lazzah/David thing goes in the meantime, hey, this forum is dead and any posting at all is good posting at this point, I'm certainly not complaining. It's been giving me a reason to keep checking in this entire month so far. :bravo: Though of course I'm always on board to contribute to any of the other discussions popping up, such as...




...hmm.
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby ralphmerridew » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:35 am

Other possible causes:
- competition from systems like Twine and Inform 7
-- I'm not sure how much I7 leached away existing drifters. (davidw and rotter have been using I7, but I think they said that they'd use ADRIFT if it were more actively developed -- is that correct?) But I think I7 has had a big effect in drawing away new authors; a first-time writer who would have found I6 too intimidating and used ADRIFT instead, might now be perfectly fine using I7.

- Limited documentation
-- In the documentation (at least the version at http://help.adrift.co/ ):
--- "Location Group List", "Location List", "Object List", "Selection Only", "State List", "Text", "Value List", "Playing Games" have completely blank pages.
--- Sections "Creating Games", "Common Traits / Restrictions", "Common Traits / Actions", "Alternative Descriptions / An Example", "Settings / General", "The Standard Library", "Advanced", "Advanced Tutorials" are just "TBC" (to be continued?).
--- "Options", "Simple Mode", "Advanced Techniques" have a "TBC" for part of them.
--- There are only nine examples provided, and even the most sophisticated, "Jack and the Beanstalk", is still something that could have been done in AGT.
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby rotter » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:17 am

ralphmerridew wrote:Other possible causes:
- competition from systems like Twine and Inform 7
-- I'm not sure how much I7 leached away existing drifters. (davidw and rotter have been using I7, but I think they said that they'd use ADRIFT if it were more actively developed -- is that correct?) But I think I7 has had a big effect in drawing away new authors; a first-time writer who would have found I6 too intimidating and used ADRIFT instead, might now be perfectly fine using I7.


Can't speak for David (I think he can just about manage that himself) but yes I would love to be an activate Drifter again. I can write in I7 and it is quite easy to get a basic game up and running in a very short time. But for a non-programmer it becomes mind-numbing complicated to do anything serious. I went over to the dark side because I knew it was an active scene and still being developed. V5 has flaws but it would still be easier, for me, to use.

ralphmerridew you are probably right, the poor documentation would be very off-putting to a newbie. I haven't used any in years but I would have when I started out.

Question is of course, what can be done?
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Re: My One and ONLY v4 Game!

Postby P/o Prune » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:23 am

I'm not sure how big a competiton I7 and Twine really is.
Adrift is (or in somes opinion used to be) for the "uneducated" of us who wish to concentrate on the story and puzzles rather than having to do a lot of coding. For me, that was the major reason for using Adrift in the first place

Why Adrift has faded away? I believe that one major contributing factor was the roaring silence from Campbell regarding Adrift 4 while he was creating V.5
Personally I wouldn't have mind waiting for V.5 if it meant that Campbell was still updating V.4 while working on V.5. I'm sure it would have kept people with the comunity.
Another factor could be that people simply "grew up" and found other interests, got family's etc.

As for Rotters question as to What can be done, well... One thing would be getting Campbell back on line and if that's impossible then that he at least, as David suggested, came out and told us what his intentions are regarding Adrift. Let's get this settled once and for all so people can move on to other developers if they so desire.
It's my personal belief that those of us who work with V.5 is reasonably happy with it but we need to have some kind of support and development if we are to continue use it.
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