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look and /or search

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look and /or search

Postby P/o Prune » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:43 am

Do you consider looking at, and searching an object to be the same action?

If so, how about looking at a character and searching the character, shouldn't that be two different things?
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Re: look and /or search

Postby Campbell » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:23 am

Personally I think both should be treated differently.
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Re: look and /or search

Postby P/o Prune » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:35 am

But wouldn't search and examine then mean the same?
And then how do I go about it when Examine and look are considered the same in V.5? (A new genreal task?)
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Re: look and /or search

Postby Tyson » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:36 pm

"Examine/look" implies passive observation. "Search" implies that you are actively manipulating the object in hopes of finding something.

Implementing a search function seems easy. Just construct a general task with the command construction "search %object%" and apply restrictions that prevent the player from successfully searching objects she doesn't see. Then you can just use a specific task to override the search whenever you want the player to find something in particular.
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Re: look and /or search

Postby NickyDude » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:50 pm

I would consider examine and search the same, but not look. You can 'look' at the moon but cannot search it. If you 'examine' a body you are searching for clues, That's how I see it. :)
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Re: look and /or search

Postby P/o Prune » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:34 pm

NickyDude wrote:I would consider examine and search the same, but not look. You can 'look' at the moon but cannot search it. If you 'examine' a body you are searching for clues, That's how I see it. :)

Exactly... And yet, examine has always been equal to look in the IF world, hasn't it?
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Re: look and /or search

Postby Hensman Int'l » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:13 pm

Dictionary definitions:
Examine - v.t. to inquire, to inspect, to scrutinize, to explore, to investigate, to interrogate.
Look - v.i. to turn eyes upon, to appear to be, to consider, to seem, to face; n. the act of gazing upon, facial expression, aspect, view.
Search - v.t. to look over or through to find, to probe into; v.i. to look for, to seek, to explore; n. quest, inquiry, investigation.

The "joys" of the English language. :? If you want to be strict in usage, give a prompt at the beginning of the game what your intent is. Otherwise prepare for GTV.

And by the way, you can "search the moon" if you're looking for a landmark.
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Re: look and /or search

Postby ralphmerridew » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:27 pm

I consider "examine" to be the same as "look at", and view "search" as being different from them.

I'd expect "examine body", among other things, to describe the clothes worn.
I'd expect "search body" to got through the pockets.

I remember being irritated at an IF Comp game (Triune, IIRC), where "examine (something)" had the player reach into a hole and got bitten by a snake.

But I don't consider these absolutes. I'd be willing to accept a game that did otherwise, if it were upfront about its rules.
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Re: look and /or search

Postby NickyDude » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:40 pm

Thinking about if you come to, say a treasure chest, then examining it doesn't mean you're searching it... :?
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Re: look and /or search

Postby saabie » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:33 am

I would consider "Look" to mean that i stay where i am and just look towards the object.
"Examine" would mean i would go right up to it to look at it more closely, perhaps smelling it, listening to it, feeling it or tasting it as well, and even picking it up to look under it.
"Search" i would take to mean checking in the pockets of a body, looking inside all of the drawers and compartments of an object to find something that was concealed inside, or checking for secret compartments and buttons.
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Re: look and /or search

Postby NickyDude » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:36 am

"Examine" would mean... smelling it... or tasting it as well...

"Search" i would take to mean checking in the pockets of a body...


Ewww! :)
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Re: look and /or search

Postby Duncan_B » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:12 am

I generally consider >LOOK AT, >EXAMINE, and >SEARCH the same verb. I'm generally annoyed when a parser differentiates between any of the three, just seems unnecessarily picky to me.
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Re: look and /or search

Postby NickyDude » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:39 am

I must say that I don't use >LOOK AT when playing an adventure and very rarely try >SEARCH.
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Re: look and /or search

Postby P/o Prune » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:48 am

I guess the smartest thing to do is to do as suggested earlier in this thread and clearly state in the readme, or intro, that the command search should be used in case player wishes to search a person.
Personally I feel that there's a difference between the two commands look & search. But I also know, like Duncan points out, that many players uses look as a sononym for examining an object including searching.
So it's a matter of taste I guess
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Re: look and /or search

Postby DCBSupafly » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:38 pm

I think I understand where you're coming from Prune, you have clues or items on someone's body but they are hidden or tricky and you know the casual player (read: lazy detective, unobservant guard, etc.) will type examine or look and that shouldn't give away your clues/hidden item. On the other hand, requiring a differentiation between search/examine is cumbersome, feels artificial, and is unreasonable to expect.

I remember playing Hero Quest when I was a kid, and discovering that if I searched a room multiple times, sometimes latter searches would reveal stuff not revealed in the first searches....which was dumb and frustrating. The GM told me after one quest that had I search this one room 14 times I would have found something. That's absurd!

Some suggestions: Use the narrative to get the player in the mindset of 'searching' and/or use a synonym for search that doesn't feel as vague or as close to 'examine' and 'look.' For example, a scene before the search in question where someone sends you to find something in a room, and you can't, so they tell you to 'search under the bed'.

Perhaps a buried clue: John is wearing a leather jacket with a bunch of zippers
> look zippers
The zippers are standard brass YKK, but poking out behind one of them is a secret clue item!

Or to use the synonym idea:
The tall man walks up. He is wearing a jacket and whistling.
>look tall man
He's just some guy, albeit tall. He's wearing a jacket and whistling to himself.
>frisk man
You pat the tall man up and down and feel a bulge at his waist. Careful, it might be a cleverly obscured firearm!

If the player is put in a position where they are told they need to use a special 'look' verb, they won't be playing GTV, but you will require them to be observant in a manner of speaking.
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