Combined Lib v4-alpha6 ready for testing

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Denk
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Re: Combined Lib v4(alpha2) released

Post by Denk »

P/o Prune wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:59 amGave it another try and apart from the fact that it is a bit cumbersome (my opinion) it works fine. I wouldn't mind having it in the next update of the combined library. :yeah:
Thanks for checking it out.

Unfortunately, the cumbersomeness can't be avoided as ADRIFT doesn't know what transparency is. The first demo was a little less cumbersome as it checked every object in the game every turn automatically but it turned out that this method was far too slow in big games with e.g. 1000 objects where each turn would then take about a minute. So now the author has to tell the library which objects are relevant to check.

The transparency tasks are disabled by default ( "TransparencyBetaOn"-variable is zero by default), otherwise 8 unnecessary tasks will run each turn. This may not be very time consuming but it will be disturbing when using the debugger. Most games will not need transparent containers. But perhaps that will change now they are included in the Combined Library...
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Combined Lib v4(alpha3) released

Post by Denk »

Based on feedback, I realized that the variable "TransparencyBetaOn" isn't really needed. Instead, the many transparency tasks will only run if at least one object is added to the group "Transparent Closable Containers" and at least one dynamic object is added to the group "Relevant Dynamic Objects".

So I have changed this in alpha3:

Combined Library Release 4_0_alpha3.taf
(37.71 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
I will wait about a week before publishing Combined Library v4 unless I get proposals on how to improve the library further. :Thanks:
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Re: Combined Lib v4(alpha3) released

Post by Denk »

I just found a couple of bugs I am working on:

1. The task "# Auto-unlock object with key" misses some restrictions. Only important if you have chosen the Player-property "Automatically unlock objects if you have the proper key and try to open them".

2. Problems with Transparent Containers if the transparent container is a static object present in more than one location.

I hope to provide you with an updated version soon.
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Combined Lib v4-alpha4 ready for testing

Post by Denk »

Just found a few special cases with transparent containers I had first overlooked, so had to fix that.

Also, for some reason the very old "score percentage"-bug hasn't been fixed before, so that one is now fixed in Combined Lib. 4.

Here is alpha 4 of Combined Library 4, which hopefully is bug free:
Combined Library Release 4_0_alpha4.taf
(38.16 KiB) Downloaded 8 times

However, I will wait a few days before making an official release, as some bugs may be discovered in the meantime, which I would have to fix too.
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Combined Lib.(alpha4) needs more fixes

Post by Denk »

Hi,

Just letting you know that I am implementing more bugfixes etc so there will also be an alpha-5 before the final release.

These problems are in alpha-4:

* Forgot to add "below" to the "look under object"-task.

* The "shoot object" task should be modified, so if the player only types "fire" then ADRIFT asks "Fire what?" which can be responded to.

* If the player only types "get" (or take), then ADRIFT asks "Get who?". It would be better if ADRIFT asks "Get what?"

* Erase "remove" from the Take Character task and the take-fix task. Probably no-one try to "remove" a character and it creates problems elsewhere.

* Introduce a "Move object"-task. Currently there isn't one.
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Combined Lib v4-alpha5 ready for testing

Post by Denk »

I have fixed the issues mentioned in my previous post.

Here is alpha 5 of Combined Lib 4:
Combined Library Release 4_0_alpha5.taf
(38.61 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

Once again I will wait a few days before releasing the official version in case some of us find some more bugs...
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Re: Combined Lib v4-alpha5 ready for testing

Post by Denk »

I was thinking that we might as well add some missing verbs to the Combined Library before I publish it.

I would very much like to hear your opinions before I proceed with this.
:Thanks:

However, it might be annoying to have too many verbs in the Standard Library. If a verb isn't relevant for a game, e.g. "repair" then the author will have to spend time considering what the default response should be to that verb, though more experienced authors will probably just delete that verb. The author may also prefer that some words are not synonyms but have different meanings.

Looking at the thread "Verbs used in Inform & TADS" I propose:

1. New synonyms for attack: fight, murder, punch
2. New synonym for close: shut
3. New synonyms for drop %object%: throw, discard %object%
4. New synonym for pull: drag
5. New synonym for "put objects on others": drop
6. New synonyms for "put objects in others": drop, insert
7. New synonyms for rub: scrub, wipe
8. New synonyms for say: speak, answer
9. New synonym for smell: sniff

10. New synonyms for turn %object%: spin, rotate, screw, unscrew, twist.
And remove restriction that requires that you are holding the object.

11. Add "break %object%"-task. Synonyms: destroy, smash, crack, others?

12. New task: Throw object at/on %character%, synonym: toss

13. New task: Throw %object1% at/on/onto %object2%, synonym: toss

14. New task: Throw object1% in/into %object2%, synonym: toss, drop

22. New task:
tie/fasten/attach %object1% to %object2%
tie/fasten %object2% with/using %object1%

14. New task: untie/detach/unfasten %object%

15. New task: Light %object%

16. New task: Listen to %object%

17. New task: Listen to %character%

18. Change existing task "listen * " to just "listen"

19. Search %object% will call "look in %object%" if the object is a container.

20: New task: "smell". ("smell %object% already exist)

21. New task: talk/speak to %character%

I think it is perfectly okay to deviate some from synonyms in Inform and TADS, as many authors also alter the verbs in Inform and TADS. We should take those we think are important.

I hope to hear your opinions on all this. :Thanks:
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Re: Combined Lib v4-alpha5 ready for testing

Post by P/o Prune »

I have read through them. All of them are absolutely valid. :yeah:
The more verbs we have the lesser the chance of complaints about Guess the verb.
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Re: Combined Lib v4-alpha5 ready for testing

Post by Lazzah »

Denk wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:49 pm I was thinking that we might as well add some missing verbs to the Combined Library before I publish it.

I would very much like to hear your opinions before I proceed with this.
:Thanks:

However, it might be annoying to have too many verbs in the Standard Library. If a verb isn't relevant for a game, e.g. "repair" then the author will have to spend time considering what the default response should be to that verb, though more experienced authors will probably just delete that verb. The author may also prefer that some words are not synonyms but have different meanings.

Looking at the thread "Verbs used in Inform & TADS" I propose:

1. New synonyms for attack: fight, murder, punch
2. New synonym for close: shut
3. New synonyms for drop %object%: throw, discard %object% - I disagree that THROW should be a synonym of DROP in this context. To throw something is to cast it away from you.
4. New synonym for pull: drag
5. New synonym for "put objects on others": drop - another synonym would be PLACE.
6. New synonyms for "put objects in others": drop, insert - As above.
7. New synonyms for rub: scrub, wipe
8. New synonyms for say: speak, answer
9. New synonym for smell: sniff

10. New synonyms for turn %object%: spin, rotate, screw, unscrew, twist. - I disagree that SCREW and UNSCREW should be synonyms of TURN. If you were screwing a screw into something you wouldn't type TURN SCREW.
And remove restriction that requires that you are holding the object.

11. Add "break %object%"-task. Synonyms: destroy, smash, crack, others?

12. New task: Throw object at/on %character%, synonym: toss

13. New task: Throw %object1% at/on/onto %object2%, synonym: toss

14. New task: Throw object1% in/into %object2%, synonym: toss, drop - Again, I disagree that DROP object IN(TO) object should be the same as THROW object IN(TO) object. The former should be a separate task from the latter.

22. New task:
tie/fasten/attach %object1% to %object2%
tie/fasten %object2% with/using %object1%

14. New task: untie/detach/unfasten %object% - Another synonym would be UNDO.

15. New task: Light %object% - Antonym would be EXTINGUISH %object%.

16. New task: Listen to %object%

17. New task: Listen to %character%

18. Change existing task "listen * " to just "listen"

19. Search %object% will call "look in %object%" if the object is a container.

20: New task: "smell". ("smell %object% already exist)

21. New task: talk/speak to %character%

I think it is perfectly okay to deviate some from synonyms in Inform and TADS, as many authors also alter the verbs in Inform and TADS. We should take those we think are important.

I hope to hear your opinions on all this. :Thanks:
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Re: Combined Lib v4-alpha5 ready for testing

Post by Denk »

Thanks both of you. I don't have a problem with the changes proposed by Lazzah, so I will do as proposed.

To clarify:

* DROP and THROW should never be synonyms.

* I don't think there is a need for a "drop object in object"-task. I think the player will usually use "throw" to do that. Of course, a special case would be if you are standing in a location with a ravine, the exact distance to the ravine determines if you can DROP the object into the ravine or you will have to THROW it into the ravine. I think the player will usually use THROW in this situation as it works independent of distance.

* "Place" is already an option in all "put"-tasks in Combined Library 4(alpha versions) so that fits with what you propose

* SCREW and UNSCREW should not be synonyms for TURN. Instead I will make a separate task for SCREW and another for UNSCREW.

* assuming "undo object" doesn't collide with the normal undo, I will add it as a synonym for untie

QUESTIONS:
1. I will add an "extinguish"-task in addition to a "light"-task. Not sure if "light" should be identical to "burn". I suppose you can also light an electrical flashlight?

2. Lazzah, I am not completely sure if you accept "drop" as a synonym in the "put objects on others"-task and "put objects in others" ? (e.g. DROP OBJECT ON TABLE or DROP OBJECT IN BOX)


3. Lazzah, I get that you think THROW OBJECT means to throw it away from you, unlike drop is right in front of you. Still, the THROW OBJECT command could by default say something like "You throw %object%.name away from you." and still place the object on the ground. The author could then override the "throw object"-task if e.g. a bottle should break if you throw it. What do you think?
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Re: Combined Lib v4-alpha5 ready for testing

Post by P/o Prune »

Maybe a stupid question. But can't you have a synonym for two things? Or will it mess up tasks?

After all, it's a question of making the parser suitable to most players and if someone wants to throw an object rather than drop it I can't see the problem.
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Re: Combined Lib v4-alpha5 ready for testing

Post by Denk »

P/o Prune wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:38 pm Maybe a stupid question. But can't you have a synonym for two things? Or will it mess up tasks?
If I understand you correctly, then yes, as long as two general tasks cannot be triggered by the exact same response. So from a technical viewpoint a THROW %object% task (synonym or not for "drop") isn't in conflict with a dedicated "throw"-task like "throw object at object" or similar.

P/o Prune wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:38 pmAfter all, it's a question of making the parser suitable to most players and if someone wants to throw an object rather than drop it I can't see the problem.
My initial proposal on throw/drop corresponded to the default behaviour of Inform. It isn't important to me that they behave 100% the same, as long as the player understand the difference which hopefully should be clear from the response. Of course, somewhere we need to draw the line. For instance, one could argue that drop %object% is less careful than put down %object% and that we needed separate tasks for them so the author could destroy a vase if it was dropped instead of being put down. In the first text adventure ever ("Colossal Cave"), a vase would break if you dropped it without dropping a pillow first... :|
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Re: Combined Lib v4-alpha6 ready for testing

Post by Denk »

Hi, I made a lot of changes since alpha-5 so I will wait some days before releasing the official version of the Combined Library 4.

In the meantime, here is alpha-6 of the Combined Library 4. I can only encourage you to play with it, so we hopefully can find all bugs left and get rid of them before the official release. Thanks.

EDIT: The official Combi-Lib 4.2 has been released here: https://www.adrift.co/game/1642
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