Will we rule the IFDB?

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Lumin
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by Lumin »

Lumin wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:06 pm Answer to the title question: No, the people contributing to the site and providing all the content have no say in anything, Dan Fabulich owns the IFDB now and will shape it into whatever soulless sanitized form he desires.

I feel like I regained my interest in the non-Adrift parts of the parser IF community again just to have it violently stamped out. For real, who's idea was it to put Choice of Games which is NOT a company known for its professional behavior in charge of literally everything?

But I guess that means this is a good opportunity to refocus
Any future reviews will be of Adrift games and posted here on the Adrift site and to rotter's, there's literally no point to anything else as things currently stand.

Lol at least we know they're reading, they just deleted my 10 year old account and deleted my reviews for saying that. I appreciate the motivation to stick to my resolution.
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by P/o Prune »

It's really sad when people sink so low that they can't take criticism. Sometimes I think that some administrators hasn't realized that we're not living in North Korea or China.
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by David Whyld »

The irony being that they go on at length about fairness and making people feel welcome, yet the way they act is worse than out and out discrimination. And they don't even seem aware of it. Mad but then I suppose some of the Nazi party genuinely felt they were in the right.
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Lumin
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

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Thanks guys but I'm not worrying about it.

I guess technically they had a valid reason for this account since I only remembered I had it in the first place awhile after they banned my active one, although that one was banned as part of a general purge of CYS users and some others. And obviously we had plenty of unkind things to say about the whole situation already since there's not much value placed on phony politeness over there.

We'd started listing games and posting reviews a few months ago which had the side effect of getting a bunch of them in the Top 100 ahead of games that had been collecting dust for a decade, since nobody else bothers to rate things on the IFDB. Seems to have really bothered someone.

There's a little more to the whole thing, not long ago there was a big discussion on the intfiction forums about removing games with mature content and political messages (anti-communism, etc) from public view, which turned into other speculation of what should be popping the front page and in the top game lists. I know a couple users from here were in that thread so I don't know how much backstory I need to put here, but Dan Fabulich made some comments there and in the github suggesting authors wouldn't be allowed to link their game anywhere and ask fans to go rate and review it. Which makes no sense since we're talking about a site passively listing games, it isn't exactly the IFComp and it's generally dead enough you'd think they'd WANT more activity, especially from younger players.


But the catalyst seems to be that Endmaster the main mod on CYS got himself into the Top 10 reviewers by....wait for it....writing reviews. He listed a bunch of old C64 games and gamebooks that have digital versions now and wrote about 50,000 words about them.

And then some mod banned him and deleted them all, and then started taking actions against others. The IFDB isn't logging admin actions at all right now (there's a note on the github about that, #178 I think) and at least a couple of others unrelated to CYS have been mysteriously shadow-banned as well. So while I haven't kept up with intfiction drama for years it seems to me like some grudges are being settled. But with Dan Fabulich making comments about needing to keep fans of a game from rating it up too quickly and how to keep those kinds of too popular games off the top 100, it's kind of obvious.

I can only assume there's some kind of secret handshake needed to be a "true" IF player, if you don't know what XYZZY is you can't participate in The Sacred Database or something. But they sure do spend a lot of time worrying about where the next generation of players will come from...

Anyway, I was severely annoyed about this all for a couple of days, but I never paid much attention to the rest of the community before and I'll just go back to that. I'm helping someone on CYS through Sugarlawn right now so it's not like they have the ability to restrict access to the games, all they can do is stop people from writing reviews which....okay, sure, if they think that will help.

I'm going to go ahead and attach some of the reviews of Endmaster's they deleted. I've passed them around to a few people who asked, but might as well archive them here somewhere.
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David Whyld
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by David Whyld »

I haven’t paid much attention to Intfiction for years now but with the way things go over there, I don’t think I’m missing much. It’s a shame it’s ended up like this though. In the early days it was a nice place.
Last edited by David Whyld on Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by EndMaster »

Like I said before on CYS, Dan's still butthurt over the fact I didn't just start letting him dictate and rewriting the rules over at CYS all those years ago. He's always been petty. Lol.

As for the rest of the IF mods, well if they want to keep their stagnant status quo and just go around generally circle jerking each other, that's up to them. Not like ANY of them tried to contact me about anything so their opinions pretty much mean less than nothing. Granted I've never actually ever been part of the "IF community" so none of it was ever a major thing for me in the first place.
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by P/o Prune »

This is just a thought....
How would people react if someone set up a new IF forum, embracing all kinds of platforms. Pretty much like the IntFiction, but without the dictator? :|
Has people had about enough of Dan, or will the majority stay with him?
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Lumin
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

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I'm of mixed feeling about this, because let's face it - there never has been a real community around Intfiction. Maybe the boomers who thought they were better off just sticking it out on RAIF were in the right after all, because they became so watered down and uninteresting after that. And what was basically the first real conflict they had just led to some of the more lively people being driven off and their forum locked forever into this boring generic monoculture with Dan making their rules for them.

I think there are people out there who WOULD be interested in an IF forum with less of a stifling atmosphere, but it would be essentially growing a community from scratch with nothing holding it together but an interest in text games...and usually only in certain kinds of text games. There's definitely still a major schism between parser IF/interactive novels/tiny sadtwines and experimental stuff, then the more polished hybrid games and the shallow soft porn romance garbage that passes for 'choice based' on mobile these days. Then of course there's the actual AIF community which is bigger and weirder than ever these days now that they've realized pandering to furries is where the actual cash money is.

There's a lot of crossover there, sure, but some big all encompassing community would be a full time job to build and keep together. It's a lot more than just setting up some forum software, and the only way IntFiction itself accomplished it...even to the mostly failed degree they did, half dead and with no sense of community...is by a heavy handed enforcement of their 'culture' that demands the stripping away of personality and creativity and doesn't allow any sort of passion or conflict. Even mild sarcasm is flagged and deleted over there.

But yes, it is maybe a little problematic that Dan, the guy whose major contribution to IF was locking it behind a paywall, was allowed to direct policy on IntFiction, get control of the IFComp and now owns the IFDB as well. The IFTF genuinely never needed to exist in the first place, and their motivations in quietly taking total control over a massive and farflung indie community are suspect at best. There are at least a few other authors who seem realize this. But I'm kind of looking at it like, well all power to them if someone over there pushes back enough that something comes of it, but the "mainstream IF community" such as it is allowed this to happen to themselves, so it's on them to sort it out if they want freedom badly enough. The rest of us who already have our own dedicated communities without these problems are just going to continue to do our own thing.

Honestly the more I think about it, the key to a truly diverse and vibrant IF community is exactly what we're doing here with ADRIFT, with CYS, how Quest is and so on, plus the various other smaller splinter communities. People with interests in certain systems or styles of games really should band together and support their own authors and develop their own cultures. No one person or group should have it all under their thumb, and obviously people are most passionate about the things that interest them. Prune, just look at your own dedication to ADRIFT, you've literally been the one thing keeping this place afloat at times. Or think of how it was when it was David chipping away at those billion games and reviews. Besides all that, actually knowing the people you share your hobbies with is essential. That sense of connection and intimacy is the big and obvious thing missing in places that try too hard to embrace everything by embracing nothing.

There's this little group that split off from CoG recently because CoG was too 'toxic' and LGBT unfriendly for them (I know I know, just...how, lol) and my friends and I were making fun of them at first, but honestly looking at it now, good for them. They know what they want and they're free to do it and be creative in their own way no matter how dumb I might personally think it is.

I mean minus the fact they were leaving their little Tumblr safespace to go out to harass and threaten people on other forums and on Discord over it, lol. But even IntFiction mods will happily (and hypocritically) do that much to others, so that is just acceptable internet behavior now, I guess.


....okay so actually I guess my feelings weren't mixed at all.
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Lumin
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by Lumin »

I will say though that the IFDB--solely because it's the central place for reviews and for finding games at all for many people--is the one thing that has real value and would be the one I'd consider most worth replacing with a more independent site some day, if that idea ever got off the ground.
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by rotter »

Lumin wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:29 pm I'm going to go ahead and attach some of the reviews of Endmaster's they deleted. I've passed them around to a few people who asked, but might as well archive them here somewhere.
I'll add them to Delron when I get a minute. They will eventually appear in search then.
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Lumin
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by Lumin »

rotter wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:29 am
I'll add them to Delron when I get a minute. They will eventually appear in search then.
Oh, that would be neat, appreciate it! I wouldn't have considered asking you since they're not for Adrift games.
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

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Prune, just look at your own dedication to ADRIFT, you've literally been the one thing keeping this place afloat at times.
That is P/o Prune, thank you (Pilot officer ;-) ) and thank you for the kind words. IF and, especially, Adrift has always had a big place in my heart. I truly enjoy sitting some evening with a glass of wine and
It's like you are up against the mind of the author... s/he creates a puzzle and you have to beat him/her Sherlock Holmes vs. Professor James Moriarty :wink:
Or think of how it was when it was David chipping away at those billion games and reviews.
Oh yes. The dreaded Davis reviews. He was cruel (read: honest) :wink: But I learned a lot about writing IF from reading his reviews (I hope I have improved, David :nerves: )
Like David, I could drop the IntFiction in a heartbeat. But unfortunately this is where the IFComp is and , pretty much, the only place to have your games reviewed.
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

Post by BattleoftheBased »

ayyyy I didn't know @Endmaster was here! 8)

The IFDB situation still confuses me, it really must have been because of a grudge because that's the only way any of it makes any sense. ngl it upset me though even though I wasn't reading the threads when it was going on. I never interacted with these people on this other site so why did they decide my opinion is invalid if I say I like a game? Is that not the entire purpose of the IFDB?

Me and ten thousand other people played Necromancer but if I went over there and tried to rate it then OBVIOUSLY I must be the one that's lying. Sure ok, great community.
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Lumin
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

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BattleoftheBased wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:08 pm ayyyy I didn't know @Endmaster was here! 8)

The IFDB situation still confuses me, it really must have been because of a grudge because that's the only way any of it makes any sense. ngl it upset me though even though I wasn't reading the threads when it was going on. I never interacted with these people on this other site so why did they decide my opinion is invalid if I say I like a game? Is that not the entire purpose of the IFDB?

Me and ten thousand other people played Necromancer but if I went over there and tried to rate it then OBVIOUSLY I must be the one that's lying. Sure ok, great community.
You're on CYS? Nice, I sensed you were made of stronger stuff than the average noob. What's your account over there?
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Re: Will we rule the IFDB?

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BattleoftheBased wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:08 pm ayyyy I didn't know @Endmaster was here! 8)
Yep, I'm not on here much, but I check it from time to time.
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